out of sheer anti-sovietism, Anthony Beevor wrote outrageous libel. I've tried to open your eyes but now I give up.
You utter blind fool. My aunt, who died recently was in her 20's and living in Silesia at the time. She could have told you how little libel there is in the above....... There's a chap on here who believes there were 'standing orders to rape'. I don't believe that but I do believe that the behaviour of the troops was repellent in this respect, largely ignored by their officers and stains their otherwise great achievements.
up until now no evidences of rape cases was subjected. Up until recently any such suggestion would have been severely repressed in the SU. Up until recently the Soviet records had not been opened exposing just how much the red Army itself was concerned at the violations. Up until recently most violated women did not want to discuss such things. (especially since many were children at the time. Who could blame them for wanting to forget and get on with their lives?) Do you think the perpetrators would boast of their crimes? even now?
up until now no evidences of rape cases was subjected. Funny, so why all of the records coming out of Russian archives? Oh, i get it, Russia are liars as well. Okay, just so we're all equal in your closed eyes Stalin. Kitty
I for one am getting very bored with stalin's childish, unsubstantiated non-arguments and selective-denial. It seems any evidence put before him against his claims is western libel and lies, while at the same time forwarding no evidence himeslf to substantiate his pathetic bias and claims. Funnily it is the same tactics that all supporters of the un-supportable use in order to keep their heads in a cloud of self-denial. An immature trait of a coward who defends the wrong doings of the people he supports and refuses to acknowledge the valid acts of those he does not. He will probably never see military service and would run from a fight, unless supported by enough fellow cowards to outnumber the opposition. The same type of insecure person who happily took the role of concentration camp guard or other power seeking bully. I know the type and they are often looked at.... not in awe, fear or respect but in pity. I appologise now to everyone (except stalin) for this outburst of personal insult, but the kid's an idiot. :sign_alright:
I appologise now to everyone (except stalin) for this outburst of personal insult, but the kid's an idiot. :sign_alright: You know what the scariest part of this is? i think that he is actually classed as an adult. The body may be, but the brain ain't. Kitty
He really has stirred us up. I've learnt from this experience. He has united all of us against him. Thank you stalin!
This is a most horrible chapter in the end of the war. Beevor states in his "Berlin" book that a Russian Officer was taking German Prisoners through the Ruins of Stalingrad and told them to look around, that this is what will happen to Berlin. The germans who fought in Russia knew exactly what was coming to the Reich if the Russians broke through. They had seen first hand of how the Russians were treated and knew that they could expect no less mercy for their folk. A lot of stories state that the Russian Fighting Units were ok but that the main offenders were the units coming up from the rear and the units made up of recently liberated prisoners of the germans. It started in Nemmersdorf and continued all the way through to the gates of Berlin. Curiously enough when refugees from the East made their way west they found little sympathy from the Western Provinces populace. The reason was that the Westerners has suffered for years at the hands of the West's Strategic Air Forces and felt that the Eastern Provinces were finally finding out what it was like to be under attack. The rapes were so bad that the Arch Bishop of Berlin wrote to the Pope explaining that German Women were committing suicide believeing they had committed a cardinal sin. The Red Army behaved terribly at the end of the war but the whole conflict in the East was a war of annihalation of two ideologies and races. You might be disgusted by the Actions of the Russians but they werent the only side who committed atrocities in the East. There are many towns in Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltic States who found out that the Germans were as bad.
Just found this book by a woman who was there. Anyone read it?http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?ISBN=0805075402&z=y&cds2Pid=1215&linkid=583347 A quote from a review on it. Anonymous writes of her neighbors' collective shame about their complicity with Nazism and quotes a German refugee, brutalized at the Czech border, who says wearily, "We can't complain. We brought it on ourselves." Some women had close escapes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A9043869 I myself, thank God, was spared because I had 2 babies, the Russians love children. During the occupation there were checks in the night. *Russian soldiersand a German came into the bedroom, looked under the bed etc and "oh a baby" and tiptoed out again.
Up until recently any such suggestion would have been severely repressed in the SU. Up until recently the Soviet records had not been opened exposing just how much the red Army itself was concerned at the violations. Up until recently most violated women did not want to discuss such things. So, why there's not a single lawsuit underway now, thru which victims of second world war could fine those who responsible for such atrocities as rape. For example, concentration camps victims got their satisfactions.
This is a most horrible chapter in the end of the war. Beevor states in his "Berlin" book that a Russian Officer was taking German Prisoners through the Ruins of Stalingrad and told them to look around, that this is what will happen to Berlin. The germans who fought in Russia knew exactly what was coming to the Reich if the Russians broke through. They had seen first hand of how the Russians were treated and knew that they could expect no less mercy for their folk. A lot of stories state that the Russian Fighting Units were ok but that the main offenders were the units coming up from the rear and the units made up of recently liberated prisoners of the germans. It started in Nemmersdorf and continued all the way through to the gates of Berlin. Curiously enough when refugees from the East made their way west they found little sympathy from the Western Provinces populace. The reason was that the Westerners has suffered for years at the hands of the West's Strategic Air Forces and felt that the Eastern Provinces were finally finding out what it was like to be under attack. The rapes were so bad that the Arch Bishop of Berlin wrote to the Pope explaining that German Women were committing suicide believeing they had committed a cardinal sin. The Red Army behaved terribly at the end of the war but the whole conflict in the East was a war of annihalation of two ideologies and races. You might be disgusted by the actions of the Russians but they weren't the only side who committed atrocities in the East. There are many towns in Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltic States who found out that the Germans were as bad. Do I detect a defense of this horrible action, well the other side did it argument???? Why do you go out of your way to defend communists? They have killed over 30 million people in the last 70 years.
Do I detect a defense of this horrible action, well the other side did it argument???? Why do you go out of your way to defend communists? They have killed over 30 million people in the last 70 years. I would not defend communism but you have understand what total war meant to the people,in particular to womenfolk of occupied territories in the East Do you really think the womenfolk of Russia,Poland and Yugoslavia were treated with dignity when their countries were overrun by the Nazi hordes?.Even the other "untermenschen",Jewish womenfolk were not exempt from being savaged by military forces who had a free hand and were subject to scant disciplinary procedures in the field.There was the euphoria of victory and the they,the perpetrators had the feeling that it would never happen to the German heimat.They would never be called to book. While occupying France,some German units were composed mostly of Asiatic Russians commandered by German officers.These foot soldiers were allowed a free hand in their involvement with the civilian population.Some of these did desert and serve with distinction with the French resistance forces.However, when the tables were turned,these misfits of the Germans found themselves the subject of retribution and swift justice from the irregulars. The situation was mixed on the Western Front where the Germans fell under the Allied advance.Leonard Mosley records that far from a Werewolf threat,the German masses cast off National Socialism like an old coat, almost without grief or regret.At a time when there was a distinct absence of German males,German girls risked artillery barrages to fraternise with the "liberators" by inviting the soldiers back to their houses. Captain Saul K Padover,an American Intelligence Officer reported that "everywhere women,some of them beautiful and most of them young,accosted us and whispered invitations".Padover expressed little respect for these women from his experience.This was during battlefield engagement. Alison Owings in her recent publication "Frauen,German Women Recall the Third Reich" gives another facet of the Allied advance and reveals one character she interviewed was still an anti semite.The woman went on to say that "Anyway,they stole,robbed, raped women.It was indescribable.The English,the Canadians and the Americans.Indescribable".Thus she described her experiences of the Western Allies."The tanks shot at everything,they shot where no one was standing".She was particular angry that some Allied soldiers had attempted to plunder her typewriter. However when asked what her reaction was after hearing of the reports about the concentration camp atrocities remarked."We cried for at least 14 days.At least 14 days of crying.Day by day crying" When pressed further, Because .... her interviewer prompted. "Because we lost the war" she exclaimed.
Do I detect a defense of this horrible action, well the other side did it argument???? Why do you go out of your way to defend communists? They have killed over 30 million people in the last 70 years. I'm not defending them. I'm trying to put the incidents into context of the overall conflict. As Harry Ree has explained to you. And I'm getting sick of this "defending Communism" accusation that you and Jimbo seem to throw out at me so liberally. you have already accused me of being corrupted by Unions in another thread and now you are wondering why I defend Communists. Can you not discuss the Eastern Conflict from a neutral apolitical stance? Suppose you think that the Germans were in the end holding back the Communist Hordes from Western Europe even though they went into Russia specifically with the intention of annihalating the population? See my avatar and my name on this board? Does that not tell you were my interests lie? I'm not defending the evil Communist bogeymen Herr Oberst, I'm merely discussing in a neutral manner. You dont like it? Join a Union!!!! :goodnight:
