Regimental Diaries at their very best

Through the good offices of Andy I was given a wonderful present of the detailed Regimental Diaries of both of my former units.
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/41114-a-new-look-at-some-war-diary-records/?hl=%2Bron+%2B49th+%2Blaa+%2Brecords+%2Bandy#entry494092

I keep them all in my Picassa 3 folders and occasionally study then in detail, as I did this morning.

It was May 1944 and we were coming to the end of our stint at Cassino.

One of the things we were plagued by were the constant flares that were shot up by the Germans so that they could monitor the area and I was intrigued to read on the diary for the month that advice was sought on whether or not the flares should be fired on.
There was nothing worse than to be out in the open after dark and to have the area lit up as though it was daytime and to feel totally exposed to the enemy.

Look at the records for the answer..............

Fascinating stuff and thanks again Andy !

Ron

 

Interesting information there Ron, as you say WD's at their best. I wish all diaries were as clearly written/typed and contained such detail. Some of my 13th King's examples....well let's just say I have an easier time reading my GP's notes.

 

Indeed, I was comparing two just last night:

1st Btn Royal Irish Fusiliers - Clear, concise, with many a map ref used and in perfect chronological order.

7th Btn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers - Nothing like the above. And the chap writing it evidently had some difficulty with map refs.....

Oh well!

 

Ron,

Excellent.

I am a long way from being a historian, and not knowing anything about the desperate realities of war, I "rely" on a number of sources, including my father's memory, to gain a sense of and reflect on the memory of the men who were present at that time in the Liri Valley. Of course, I can't imagine what you and the other lads went through...I shall most certainly pause for several minutes when I'm visiting the River Gari, Casa Sinagoga and Piumarola during May 2014 with the sons and daughters of men who were present with my father 70 years previously.

The war diaries can, as mentioned, be a real mix and match with varying levels of detail. Some other examples from those covering May 1944:

2nd Battalion, London Irish Rifles (2 LIR) excerpts.
"15 May - 1630 CO's carrier hit. CO wounded and 3 ORs slightly wounded. Major Phillips wounded.
16 May - 0900 Bttn attack area 821179, supported by tanks.
-1400 Derbyshire Yeomanry to go through bttn to 819185."

1st Battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers (1 RirF) excerpts.
"17 May - 0716 Leading companies cross start line.
- 0730 Major Franklyn - Vaile OC C Company killed by shelling."

6th Battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (6 Innisks) excerpts.
"17 May - 1855 At this time, the CO had been hit fairly badly by shrapnel, but refused to be evacuated until he saw that the battle was begun and going well."

38 (Irish) Brigade excerpt.
"16 May (early morning) - 6 Innisks had a noisy night and considerable enemy mortaring and shelling. 2 LIR slight shelling. 1 RIrF still in concentration area just this side of the River Gari. Bridge across River Piopetto now complete at 850174 and second bridge being constructed nearly to enable one way traffic. Several tanks were bogged down trying to cross this river yesterday with the 6 Innisks and the bridge had to be hastily constructed during the night in time for the attack at 0900hrs."

Of course, personal narratives can really help to provide greater granularity - and I also had the absolute honour of travelling with my father to Italy in 1997 when he recalled his friends and comrades from that time.That was that first time that I can recall my Dad speaking in detail about what he witnessed....

Fifty years later, my father (CQMS Edmund O'Sullivan, E Coy 2 LIR) wrote down his memories of 15th May 1944:
“I went over and found the battalion’s commander, Colonel Goff, seriously wounded and in agony. I helped unload him.....Goff had been on reconnaissance and a shell caught him and his O Group. Father Dan Kelleher called me over and asked if I would help him with some burials. The first was the badly mutilated driver. I held back the blanket while Father Dan anointed the stumps.

That evening, I went up to the company in a 15cwt truck driven by Benny Goodman. I found that the attack due for the morning had been postponed while the new battalion commander John Horsfall, who was second in command, took over. Goodman crashed the vehicle and I had to walk the rest of the way. On the evening of 15 May, I rejoined E Company and stayed until dawn in a slit trench with my mate Eddie Mayo.”

Brigadier Scott wrote down a few comments made by Lt-Col John Horsfall (2 LIR) in his own narrative, which was written in 1944:
“The battalion came under heavy fire on the FUPs. Colonel Goff was killed early on, also the CO of the 16/5 Lancers. Geoffrey Phillips was also severely wounded and in all, some forty five casualties had been inflicted by nightfall including Ken Lovatt, our signals officer. The second in command arrived up about 3pm and we fixed zero hour for 730pm. We met the brigadier, who explained the position very clearly and then we got the latest news from Colonel Bala Bredin of the Inniskillings...

....Corporal Barnes and his section led an attack on this AFV. Corporal Barnes, himself, went forward alone covered by his Bren gunner in the face of intense fire and killed one of the crew with a grenade before he was killed himself – a most gallant act..."

and quoted the 1 RIrF adjutant's (Major Brian Clark) report of the start of events on the morning of 17th May:
"Poor Lawrie was killed within fifteen minutes of the battle beginning and his loss undoubtedly affected his men, who had learned to adore this commander, and who so completely gave himself to the well being of his men..."

and some from the Skins' report on their attack on Piumarola on the afternoon of 17th May:
"At 1745hrs, the attack went in with an almost indecent rush. The troops were tired of the lane. The one crossing for tanks across the start line, which was a sunken lane, became a bottle neck and there was great speculation as to whether the Mark VI, which was reported to be present would take advantage of the melee and wade in.....Bala Bredin was unfortunately wounded in the legs on the Start Line, but for some time declined to all offers of evacuation. In fact, he stayed there until he was able to see that the action was going right. He was eventually collared by somebody after he had fainted and removed to the ADS before he had time to expostulate. I turned up at the ADS not long after his arrival and found him in a great state of excitement and indignation at having had to come away, but rightly proud and delighted with the way his chaps had fought...".

A painting by David Rowlands can also evoke some further thoughts of the scene in the Liri. http://www.davidrowlands.co.uk/gallery/gal_detail.asp?varPaintCode=077

best wishes,

 

Thanks lads, for some first class examples on what is on offer if only one is prepared to aquire, study and understand Regimental Diaries.

Bring them on

Ron

 

Glad to hear they are still of interest Ron

 

There's nothing quite like comparing personal diary entries with Regimental Diary records for the same day.

For example;

Friday 13th. April 1945
Moved over Santerno. Some M.G. nuisance & one H.E. about twenty yards
away.
Bags of prisoners, Kiss from signora. "Liberatoris !". Chasing after tedeschis with 30 browning blazing!

Now look at the Regimental Diary for the same day,

Ron

 

I'm reading a lovely book about the experiences of a young Brirish Officer serving with the Gurkhas during WW2 and beyond. I thought I would add this excerpt, which I have literally just read, to this thread.

The officer has just returned to the front-line in the Arakan region of Burma, a landscape of swampland and hill ranges and a hot-bed of disease, as well as close-quarter fighting with the enemy.

"I took back my duties as Adjutant to find that the job was physically undemanding in this forward position, but despite our being at the end of a very long line of communication, all the usual paperwork continued unabated.

It said something of the Head Clerk, Jemadar Surrenda Mall and his staff, that they managed to cope with everything, working in a semi-underground bamboo hut with a grass roof. To hear the clacking of a typewriter amidst the sawing of cicadas and the honking of bullfrogs, and sometimes the far-distant rattle of automatic fire, all in the surroundings of bamboo jungle, tempted one to distrust reality".

Beautifully described, but there must have been many similar scenes to be set, all over the different theatres of WW2.

 

Ron,

Marvellous stuff.

The LIR were certainly pleased to have the support of 4 QOH and 9 Lancers near Argenta.. an excerpt of their 12/13 Apr 1945 diary entries is attached.

My father, CQMS with E Coy, 2 LIR recalled that time:

“We had trained with a tank brigade and were introduced to the Kangaroo, a General Grant tank with the lid removed to allow two infantry sections to be carried into battle, sheltered and speedily. The colour sergeant (me), in contrast, followed in his open-topped jeep. After all, he and his driver had steel helmets..."

One of the E Coy officers, Nick Mosley, photographed the scene (also attached),,,

best

 

Richard

Would loved to have said "Blimey !.......I know that bloke !" .....but no such luck although I think I can see a 4thQOH badge.

Many thanks for the posting.

Ron

 

The diaries do vary a lot. The 1 LFs in 1944 I have been looking at is great on lists of officers but nothing about dates, actions etc.A little bit about morale is interesting. The 77 Brigade diaries for the same year are full of messages, confusion about code names and contains the well known statement by Calvert that the Brigade was taking umbrage (over the widespread reporting that the Chinese forces were being credited with taking Mogaung) HQ were supposed to have reported that they could not find Umbrage on the map!
Generally the messages are tetchy and irritable. I only wish the personal messages between the commanders were there too!
On the whole I still prefer reading personal accounts, though Ron is right, comparing the two is best!

 

The 49th LAA Regimental Diaries of March 1946 contains this gem.

It is a hand drawn map of the Cassino area showing, amongst other things, the notorious Speedy Express.

My "fond" memories of this road is lining up, with engine revving away, until the MP's gave permission to cross this strip that was open to shellfire at any time.

Ron

 

Ron,

Really excellent find..there's a number of good traces/sketches in various diaries..

Of course, when you're up on the massif, you can see why they would have wished to speed along 'speedy express'..

best

 

Another example of looking at the same events through the eyes of different sources.

The first is my personal diary for the 19th to the 21st

The second is the War Diaries of the 4th QOH
http://www.desertrats.org.uk/WarDiaries/4th_Hussars/4thH1945.htm

The last is one of the sheets of the the Regimental Diary, obtained for me by the very generous Andy, and shown below as the original image

Thursday 19th. April 1945
Reveille at 4 am but move was cancelled. Put in some work on
auxiliary engine. Swam in the stream at the side of the tank. Wrote letter.
Some minor loot off prisoners.
Friday 20th. April 1945
Moved into next field. Tidied up turret & turned co-drivers seat
around.Made flapjacks for dinner. 25 lb smoke shell landed in next field.
Lumbered for 2nd. relief guard.
Saturday 21st. April 1945
In the column again. M.O's Kangaroo operator caught it right next
to me. As night came on we were left with no flank troops & didn't
feel to hot. In bed by 4 am.



19/4/1945 1945 At first light C Sqn picked up same Infantry, crossed the GAIANA and advanced to deposit them on the bank of the OUADERNA at dusk. 9th NZ Bde went into reserve. Kangaroos came back to leaguer in area 1 mile East of MEDICINA. B Sqn relieved by 56th Recce Regt on canal diversiva and returned to leaguer in area 238678. A Sqn less 2Tp resting. 2Tp had exciting day at PORTO MAGGIORE and had a Priest struck which had to be abandoned owing to very heavy shelling. 4Tp heavily shelled in rest area. Tp Ldrs Priest hit and was evacuated. One OR wounded.

20/4/1945 During the night three HQ Tps Kangaroos loaded and conveyed KAPOK bridging. One OR wounded. C Sqn resting. 0900 – BARNEFORCE created consisting of B Sqn 4th Hussars, B Battery RHA, B Sqn 56th Recce Regt and D coy 5th Northants and commanded by Lt Col AM Barne. Intention to pass through PORTO MAGGIORE and create bridgehead around river crossing at 259703 to enable engineers to erect a bridge. B Sqn were to go forward in 3 bounds and as they passed each bound they would call forward Infantry to consolidate. Before B Sqn could reach second bound they were very heavily shelled and were completely pinned down by fire from high velocity guns. The Infantry receiving support from the Tanks were able to consolidate on bound number 2. Any movement of the Tanks brought down very heavy fire. When dusk came there were still some enemy dug-in on the river bank. A very successful day. Total bag of PoW was 176. Casualties: Major Archer was wounded, 1 OR killed and 3 wounded.

 

Great,

Re: "1 OR killed and 3 wounded".

The CWGC record one 4 QOH being killed on 20th April 1945..http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1716898/SINGLETON-GATES,%20NORMAN

SINGLETON-GATES, NORMAN
Rank: Lance Corporal
Service No: 7982943
Date of Death: 20/04/1945
Age: 23
Regiment/Service: Royal Armoured Corps 4th Queen's Own Hussars
Grave Reference III, C, 2. Cemetery ARGENTA GAP WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Maj. Gilbert Recklaw Singleton-Gates and Dorothea Helen Singleton-Gates, of South Kensington, London.

 

Richard

I think of Singleton-Gate's parents learning their son had been killed, only 3 weeks from the end of hostilities in Italy.

And I think again of how my own parents must have felt on hearing of the death of their own son so near to the end of the war in Europe.

Ron

 

Ron,

Indeed...for the families at home, in some ways, more difficult and, of course, your brother was married.

There are nearly hundred men listed by the CWGC for Italy on 20th April 1945 - nearly half of them were Indian Army... I suppose "hostilities" in Italy had largely stopped by the end of April so days rather than weeks.Over 500 men are listed for the last ten days of April.

best

 

On another thread someone mentioned that on rare occasions the Regimental Records would have been lost or destroyed to save them falling into enemy hands.


As an example, see this entry in the 4th QOH when, in Greece in 1941 virtually the whole regiment was taken prisoner:
http://www.desertrats.org.uk/WarDiaries/4th_Hussars/4thH1941.htm

8/5/1941 Battle casualties published showing the following:-
Killed in Action:- 2Lt AS Nicholls and 12 ORs.
Wounded:- Lt AE White, 2Lt KC Caldwell and 2 ORs
Missing, believed drowned:- 14 ORs
Missing, believed PoW:-Lt Col Lillingston, Major Dollar, Major Clements, Major Peel, Major Harrison Capt Smith, Capt Eve, Capt Hamilton, Capt Wijk, Capt Kennard, Lt Dixon, 2Lt Romney, 2Lt Pragnell, 2Lt Henshaw, 2Lt Hornby, 2Lt Gilbey, 2Lt Black, 2Lt Henderson, 2Lt Peacock, Capt de Moraville, 2Lt Curwen, 2Lt Saturley, 2Lt Southall and 395 ORs.
29/5/1941 2Lt AC Telford joined the Regt from RAC Base Depot. Three Officers and 8 NCOs proceed to RAC Base Depot as Instructors for Regtl course of D&M and Gunnery. NOTE. As all the Senior Officers of the Regt who took part in the Greek Campaign are now missing, believed PoW this diary is incomplete and is only intended to act as a guide for the writing of the complete diary at the conclusion of the War.

 

Ron,

Yes, I have recently noted lost diaries from both the Dunkirk and Anzio periods.. and a number that seemed to have been subject to the type of rainfall associated with England during Dec 2013/Jan 2014, which can make them pretty much illegible.

Of course, these omissions can sometimes make tracing the "history" a bit tricky - your 4 QOH excerpt dated 28 May 1941, lists the names of casualties/missing men, and the deaths seems largely to date from April 1941.. the CWGC doesn't even list a Lieut AS Nicholls on their database.. but can now see the mistake.

MICHOLLS, ALAN SAVILLE
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Service No: 121762
Date of Death: 13/04/1941
Age: 26
Regiment/Service: Royal Armoured Corps 4th Queen's Own Hussars
Grave Reference 9. D. 13.
Cemetery PHALERON WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Maj. Maurice Gilbert Micholls and Dorothy Micholls, of Wentworth, Surrey. B.A. (Oxon.). His brother Gilbert Vivian also died on service.

ta

 

Ron

I'm a brand new member. I discovered this forum while researching my father's war - he would have been 100 this year.
From mid '42 he was a lieutenant in Signals (he joined as a signaller in '40 from university) but in '45 he was in Italy as 2i/c signals with 43rd Gurkha Lorried Infantry Brigade. It's amazing to find someone who must have been very nearly in he same place at the same time as him. He was at the battles of Medicina and the Gaiana Crossing 1th -19th April 45.