Royal australian air force personnel info

Discussion in 'Australian' started by flyingshottsman, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. flyingshottsman

    flyingshottsman Junior Member

    Looking for info on 2 relatives who served in the Royal Australian Air Force.
    CWGC does not give their unit to search further for the ops that they were killed in.

    ASTILL, Alan Edwin--flying officer--#421143-- 14th JAN 1945-- Cambridge City Cemetery
    MANGNALL, Charles Richard--flight sergeant--#433733--5th JAN 1945--St. Palais-Sur-Mer Communal

    Any info of ops and crew would be appreciated.

    flyingshottsman
     
  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Hello flyingshottsman

    Forum member Spidge (Geoff) will be along shortly to assist further.



    ASTILL, ALAN EDWIN Rank: Flying Officer Service No: 421143 Date of Death: 14/01/1945 Age: 24 Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force Grave Reference Grave 15723. Cemetery CAMBRIDGE CITY CEMETERY Additional Information:
    Son of James Edwin and Maud Astill, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia.
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2650891/ASTILL,%20ALAN%20EDWIN

    FLYING OFFICER
    ALAN EDWIN ASTILL
    421143


    SERVICE

    ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE

    DATE OF BIRTH

    7 NOVEMBER 1920

    PLACE OF BIRTH

    CHATSWOOD, NSW

    DATE OF ENLISTMENT

    31 JANUARY 1942

    PLACE OF ENLISTMENT

    SYDNEY, NSW

    NEXT OF KIN

    ASTILL, JAMES

    DATE OF DEATH

    14 JANUARY 1945

    POSTING ON DEATH

    462 (RAAF) SQN
    http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/VeteranCertificate.aspx?VeteranID=1039460

    MANGNALL, CHARLES RICHARD Rank: Flight Sergeant Service No: 433733 Date of Death: 05/01/1945 Age: 19 Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force Grave Reference Row 5. Coll. grave 4. Cemetery ST. PALAIS-SUR-MER COMMUNAL CEMETERY Additional Information:
    Son of John Leonard and Alice Corona Mangnall, of Riverstone, New South Wales, Australia.
    http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2695226/MANGNALL,%20CHARLES%20RICHARD
    FLIGHT SERGEANT
    CHARLES RICHARD MANGNALL
    433733


    SERVICE

    ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE

    DATE OF BIRTH

    23 JANUARY 1925

    PLACE OF BIRTH

    ORANGE, NSW

    DATE OF ENLISTMENT

    8 MAY 1943

    PLACE OF ENLISTMENT

    SYDNEY, NSW

    NEXT OF KIN

    MANGNALL, JOHN

    DATE OF DEATH

    5 JANUARY 1945

    POSTING ON DEATH

    106 SQUADRON


    http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/VeteranCertificate.aspx?VeteranID=1025884

    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=65970877

    regards
    Clive
     
  3. flyingshottsman

    flyingshottsman Junior Member

    Thanks Clive, got most of that from the CWGC site. Any info on what squadrons they would be serving with and what activity they might have been involved in on those dates?
    flyingshottsman
     
  4. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Hi Flyingshottsman,


    462 SQUADRON RAAF WORLD WAR 2 FATALITIES

    Date of Death: 14 January 1945

    Source :

    AWM 64 1/336 Part 3 AWM 237 (63) (64)
    NAA : A705, 166/4/189
    Aircraft Type:
    Halifax
    Serial number:
    LL 598
    Radio call sign:
    Z5 – A
    Unit:
    462 Sqn RAAF

    Summary:

    Halifax LL598 took from RAF Foulsham, Norfolk, at 1633 hours on the night of 14/15th January 1945 to carry out a special duty spoof raid dropping windows and release bombs in the Mannheim area, Germany. At 4000 feet the Pilot levelled out and set course from base. A few minutes later the Mid Upper reported smoke coming from the starboard outer engine. The pilot feathered the engine and then used the extinguisher. About 30 seconds after the engine was unfeatheared, replacing the smoke was a sheet of flame which rapidly spread over the wing. The Pilot ordered bale out. The starboard wing weakened by the heat broke off just next to the outer engine. The aircraft immediately turned starboard and dived into the ground. The Engineer and the Rear Gunner baled out successfully but the other members of the crew were killed.

    Crew:

    RAAF 421143 FO Astill, A E Captain (Pilot)
    RAAF 427410 Flt Sgt P Swarbrick, (Navigator)
    RAAF 423814 WO S J Minett, (Bomb Aimer)
    RAAF 421198 WO S R Fuller, (Wireless Air Gunner)
    RAAF 435209 Flt Sgt N O Reed, (Rear Gunner)
    RAAF 433727 Flt Sgt M G Isaac, (Mid Upper Gunner)
    RAF Sgt G A Sanday, (Flight Engineer)
    RAF Sgt I E Miles, (SD (F/E)

    The five RAAF members of the crew that were killed are buried in the RAF Cemetery, Cambridge, UK. The ORB records that Sgt Miles (RAF) was buried in London.


    Astill A E.JPG

    RAAF FATALITIES IN SECOND WORLD WAR AMONG
    RAAF PERSONNEL SERVING ON ATTACHMENT
    IN ROYAL AIR FORCE SQUADRONS AND SUPPORT UNITS

    Source:

    AWM 237 (65) NAA : A705, 166/7/785 Micro Film No 463 AFH
    Commonwealth War Graves records W R Chorley : RAF Bomber Command Losses of
    the Second World War, Page 30, Volume 1945.
    Aircraft Type: Lancaster
    Serial number: PB 617
    Radio call sign: ZN – B
    Unit: ATTD 106 SQN RAF

    Summary:

    Lancaster PB617 took off from RAF Metheringham at 0025 hours on the night of 4/5yh
    January 1945, detailed to bomb the German garrison dominating the entrance to the
    Gironde river, Royan, France. Nothing was heard from the aircraft after take off and it
    failed to return to base.

    Crew :

    RAAF 205850 FO Scott, A H Captain (Pilot)
    RAF Sgt P A Lane, (Flight Engineer)
    RAAF 432632 FO Roberts, B T (Navigator)
    RAAF 422982 FO Powell, V D (Air Bomber)
    RAAF 437495 FO Cassidy, C A (Wireless Air Gunner)
    RAAF 433733 Flt Sgt C R Mangnall, (Mid Upper Gunner)
    RAAF 434485 Flt Sgt P W Walter, (Rear Gunner)

    A Missing Research & Enquiry team report stated “It was thought that the aircraft
    collided with another Lancaster PB695 and crashed.”
    PB617 crashed at St-Palais-sur-Mer (Charente-Maritime), France, and all the crew were
    killed. They are buried in the St-Palais-sur-Mer Cemetery, Locality Charente-Maritime,
    France. At-Palais-sur-Mer is a village and commune 5kms west of Royan on the north
    shore of the mouth of the Gironde estuary.

    Mangnall_CR.jpg

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
    4jonboy, Owen and CL1 like this.
  5. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    As usual Spidge has done a great job – headstone photos from his own collection (probably taken by himself) and extracts from the work of RAAF historian Alan Storr.

    It must be realised that for Aussie servicemen who lost their lives the CWGC is only a starting point to confirm their details.

    You can use the member’s service numbers (because it’s the easiest search method) on these sites:

    https://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/roll_of_honour/

    The AWM ROH confirms the CWGC data and provides their unit details and a brief explanation of where and how they were lost. If there is a known photo of the member in the AWM collection it quite often will be linked to his ROH entry.

    http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/ServiceNumberSearch.aspx (this site is for all Aussie servicemen, not just the losses)

    The nominal roll further confirms the details (including their unit, which sometimes can conflict with the AWM ROH entry due to various reasons) plus gives a bit of info on where the person comes from etc and if they died during the war then where they are commemorated in Australia.

    http://www.naa.gov.au/ (this site is for all Aussie servicemen, not just the losses)

    The National Archives shows two files for both men, a personnel file & a casualty file – neither have been digitised as yet. You can request this to be done yourself, it costs around $20 per file and takes a week or three for the results to appear on their website. They are normally chock-full of great info.

    As 462SQN was ostensibly an Aussie unit it’s war history (Operational Record Book) is held by the NAA and you are in luck as it has been digitised (818 pages) – search for History 462. The loss of Flying Officer ASTILL is covered on pages 618 & 602, if you start at 602 and go backwards you will be able to (slowly) build up a picture of his operational flights etc.

    For Flight Sergeant MANGNALL, his unit’s ORB will be held by the UK National Archives – these can be downloaded from their website for around AU$5 per month.
     

    Attached Files:

    CL1 likes this.
  6. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    Some articles I found at the Trove website.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. flyingshottsman

    flyingshottsman Junior Member

    Thanks Guys,

    You folks do a great job for the rest of us on the sidelines that need the questions we need answered. I never expected to be as far into this aspect of my genealogy research, finding out about family members who died in battle. I started with 2 of my great-uncles, who died in RAF service in Germany & Libya, Alan Astill & Charles Mangnall mark No's 13 & 14 of relatives who went down with their aircraft and the 1st 2 Australians and join the other 12 British and Canadian flyers. My list of relatives who died in ground forces in WW 2 alone is at around 40. Your forum has provided more than I could ever hope to get on these family members. Two weeks ago I was contacted by a relative of a crewman who went down with my Uncle Watty after a bombing raid to Berlin. He had been on your site and saw one of my enquires and saw his relatives name on the list of crew provided to me.

    Now I'm off to find out if I'll have a No 15 relative, in RAF service, who I'll have to contact you folks again to get all the info.

    Thanks again

    flyingshottsman
     
  8. flyingshottsman

    flyingshottsman Junior Member

    I just found another Australian family Member who died in RAAF service on the CWGC site, but no Squadron No.
    Flying Off. Peter Norham BIRT ser. no. 427892
    buried at Durnbach War Cemetery

    Can any 'Merlin' out there shed more details?

    flyingshottsman
     
  9. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Not only Birt but O'Hara and Wilson too?
    BIRT, PETER NORHAM. Rank: Flying Officer. Service No: 427892. Date of Death: 28/01/1945. Age: 20.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force.
    Grave Reference: 4. G. 35. Cemetery: DURNBACH WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of Lt.-Col. Charles William Howard Birt, D.S.O. and 2 bars (Border Reg't WW1), and Rosalind Lucy Birt, of Tambellup, Western Australia.

    WILSON, SIDNEY GORDON. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Service No: 433749. Date of Death: 28/01/1945. Age: 20.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force.
    Grave Reference: 4. G. 33. Cemetery: DURNBACH WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of William Robert and Ivy Isabel Wilson, of Nowra, New South Wales, Australia.

    O'HARA, DOUGLAS GLEN. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Service No: 433473. Date of Death: 28/01/1945. Age: 20.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force.
    Grave Reference: 4. G. 34. Cemetery: DURNBACH WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of Samuel Thomas Herbert and Florinda O'Hara, of Glen Innes, New South Wales, Australia.

    460 Squadron Lancaster Mk III ND970 AR-S from Binbrook. Target Stuttgart.
    1 x 4,000lb HC Tectronal(?) cookie; 9 x 500lb (ammonal x4 and DO x 5)1x 500lb GP; and DO25; 2 x 500lb GP and D-12 hour
    Crew Birt (pilot) no news; R S Symes 410394 Nav PoW; D R Benbow 437488 W/Op PoW; A Field 1894823 F/Eng PoW; E G Truman 418318 Bomb Aimer PoW; O'Hara mid upper; Wilson rear, both Dead. No Loss information provided by Liberation Questionnaires.
     
  10. flyingshottsman

    flyingshottsman Junior Member

    Thanks Kevin.
     
  11. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    460 SQUADRON RAAF, WORLD WAR 2 FATALITIES

    Date of Death : 28 January 1945

    Source:

    AWM 64 (1/295) AWM 237 (63) (64)
    NAA : A705, 166/5/917
    Aircraft Type: Lancaster
    Serial number: ND 970
    Radio call sign: AR – S
    Unit: 460 Sqn RAAF

    Summary:

    Lancaster ND970 took off from RAF Binbrook at 1948 hours on the night of 28 January
    1945 to bomb Stuttgart, Germany. Bomb load 1 x 4000lb and 12 x 500lb bombs. Nothing
    was heard from the aircraft after take off and it failed to return to base. Twelve aircraft
    from the squadron took part in the raid and ND970 failed to return.

    Crew:

    RAAF 427892 FO Birt P N Captain (Pilot)
    RAAF 410394 Flt Sgt Symes, E S (Navigator)
    RAAF 418318 Flt Sgt Truman, E G (Bomb Aimer)
    RAAF 437488 Flt Sgt Benbow, D R (Wireless Operator Air)
    RAF Sgt Field, A (Flight Engineer)
    RAAF 433473 Flt Sgt O’Hara, D G (Mid Upper Gunner)
    RAAF 433749 Flt Sgt Wilson, S G (Rear Gunner)

    Flt Sgt Symes, Flt Sgt Truman Flt Sgt Benbow (all RAAF) and Sgt Field (RAF) became
    POW’s. In a statement Flt Sgt Benbow reported that “The aircraft was attacked by JU88
    fighters near Stuttgart. The aircraft was damaged. The order to put on chutes and abandon
    was given and acknowledged. The port wing was burning, and the port engine and aileron
    was u/s. The aircraft was more or less under a controlled dive. I landed in a forest near
    Stuttgart. It was freezing and I received frostbite. I walked/crawled to a village and gave
    myself up. Truman, Field and Symes were POW’s. The Germans said that O’Hara and
    Wilson were killed, and that the body of Birt was near the wreck.”

    FO Birt, Flt Sgt O’Hara and Flt Sgt Wilson are interred in the Durnbach War Cemetery,
    Germany. Note : FO Birt’s date of death is recorded in AWM 237 (64) as 29 January
    1945.

    Birt_PN 2.JPG Durnbach War Cemetery CWGC.jpg
     
  12. flyingshottsman

    flyingshottsman Junior Member

    THANKS SMIDGE
     
  13. flyingshottsman

    flyingshottsman Junior Member

    OOPS ITS SPIDGE, DIDN'T HAVE MY COFFEE THIS MORNING.
     
  14. Sharmila Soorian

    Sharmila Soorian New Member

    IMG_6911.JPG
    Hello flyingshottsman

    I am a relative of Alan Edwin Astill by marriage. Alan is my husband, Michael Astill's first cousin once removed.

    Alan is an old boy at Sydney Grammar Boys school and the school has an archive which we will, at the assistance of the school, find some old photos of Alan. I do have a photo of Alan.
     
  15. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Hello Sharmilla,
    Would be great to see some more photo's.

    Cheers
    Geoff
     

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