Seaforth Highlanders Helvetia Watch

Discussion in 'WW2 Militaria' started by SMLE, Jan 1, 2022.

  1. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Hello all,

    I collect Helvetia watches and I have a website dedicated to them:

    https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/

    Helvetia provided watches to both the allied and German forces during the war.

    I wanted to show my latest purchase and see if anyone could help with information.

    Here it is.

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    On the face of it a pretty standard Helvetia pocket watch from the late 1940s. Very similar to the GS/TP watches supplied by Helvetia to the British forces.

    If you look carefully though you may notice an inscription inside the case back, there is also one on the inner case though that is almost invisible on these photographs. The engraving is very light and looks to possibly not be professionally done.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Even with the pictures above you may be struggling. In the sellers pictures, which were a lot worse than these, I could just make out what looked like Captain and the names of a few countries. This is what it says:

    Presented by the Officers, NCOs, and Men of C Company
    Captain F Pereira
    The Seaforth Highlanders
    1924 - 1945

    England
    Ireland - Irish Rebellion
    India - Baluchistan
    Palestine - Arab Riots
    Egypt - Wafdist Rising & Mersa Matruh
    China - Japanese Invasion
    Scotland - Standby for Norway

    I have found an entry for Second Lieutenant F S J Pereira, War Substantive Lieutenant, Honorary Captain in the 1945 Army List with an effective date of 1943. Francis Stanley James Pereira was born in 1905 in London and his father was an engineer born in India. He would have been 40 in 1945.

    I also found a court martial record for him as a Corporal in 1933. He was charged with 2 counts of desertion but pled guilty to absence and was given given 56 day detention and reduced to the ranks.

    He was in the 1st Battalion at the time and the chronology seems to fit with that I think.

    I found a report of them leaving Ireland in 1926.
    No details yet on India.
    Apparently the 1st Battalion moved to Palestine in 1933.
    The Wafd party was formed in Egypt in 1919 and there were tensions between the Egyptians and British forces in the 1930s. No specific details on the Seaforths.
    With ref Mersa Matruh I have read that British troops in this area were strengthened in 1936 following the Italian invasion of Abyssinia. Again nothing specific on the Seaforths.
    In 1937 they went to Honk Kong and in 1938 Shanghai and were there during the Japanese occupation until 1940 when they moved to India.

    It looks as if Francis was posted back to Scotland before the move to India, I think as an experienced soldier, probably an NCO again by this time, he went back to the training depot at Fort George. He seems to have done OK there looking at his commission in 1943. This would explain why the chronology on the watch ends in 1940 as he spent the rest of the war away from the action.

    What I am hoping is that someone can help with more detail on the Seaforths during this time.

    As far as the watch is concerned I'm sure I can get a replacement dial, these watches are reasonably common, and I'd like to get it up and running again.

    Thanks.

    Carl
     
    Chris C, dbf, 4jonboy and 2 others like this.
  2. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

  3. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Thanks David. I had done a search on the Seaforths but obviously most of what comes up is the wartime service in Burma and Europe when he was in Scotland I think.

    I am considering applying for his records but with the current delays I don't think it's worth it. I may wait for them to be digitised at Kew. I understand they are starting with the oldest records first and with him being born in 1905 and joining in 1924 I may be lucky.
     
  4. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    1st Seaforth; July 1921 left Fort George for Ireland, after a short stay in Dublin they moved to Belfast. January 1926 they moved to Aldershot. November 1928 to Dover. December 1933 they left for Palestine/ Jerusalem. September 1934 moved to Cairo and a Month at Mersa Matruh guarding the R.A.F Station. 1936 back to Palestine from May to October, October back to Cairo. December 1936 left Cairo for Hong Kong. March 1938 Hong Kong to Shanghai. September 1938 back to Hong Kong, a week later back to Shanghai and remained there until August 1940.
     
  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Perhaps a good chance, if he was commissioned from the ranks that he was Quartermaster at the depot.

    6th Seaforths who had been in France from March were due to go to Norway with 17 Brigade, but it was cancelled....it sounds as if he didn't go to France, but had been on notice for Norway...
     
  6. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Many thanks for this.

    It all fits very well with what is on the watch. The court martial in 1933 was at Dover so that fits as well.

    The only bit that does not fit is Baluchistan between Ireland and Palestine when the 1st Battalion were in the UK. I believe the 2nd Battalion were in India at this time however. Would Baluchistan fit for the activities of the 2nd Battalion for sometime between 1926 and 1933?

    Thanks again.

    Carl
     
  7. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Thanks Rich.

    That's very useful as it seems to point to him being transferred from the 1st to the 6th Battalion if they were on standby for Norway. I did think about the possibility of him being quartermaster or similar as I know this is common for commissions from the ranks and that would explain why he stayed at the depot. However the watch does say 'From the Officers, NCO's and men of C Company'.

    Thanks. Carl.
     
  8. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Of course there is the possibility of him seeing further action with the 6th battalion, or another unit, after 1940 but for some reason it's not on the watch. With him a lieutenant approaching 40 I would guess at a UK posting being the reason though.

    Would the addition of Honorary Captain in the 1945 Army List suggest he was retiring? When was the Honorary title used?

    Thanks. Carl.
     
  9. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    2nd Battalion went to India, arriving in Meerut in November 1919. From Meerut they were sent for a year's duty on the North West Frontier at Landi Kotal. They marched 500 miles from Umbala to the North West Frontier, the march took nearly 2 months, covering up to 23 miles a day. From the Frontier they went to Nowshera in 1924. In 1927 the battalion marched 250 miles to Lahore. They moved to Jhansi in 1929 and then returned to the North West Frontier in August 1930 to a base at Miri Khel, west of Peshawar. November 1932 they moved to Haifa, Palestine. 2nd Seaforth returned to Britain in 1934 and stationed at Dover Castle until September 1937 when they went to Maryhill Barracks Glasgow.
     
  10. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Thanks again. So possibly he could have spent some time with the 2nd Battalion in India between 1926 and 1933. The return to the NWF in 1930 would seem the best bet to match the engraving on the watch. Miri Khel seems to be just outside what shows up on the map as Balochistan but perhaps it was considered Baluchistan in the 1930s. Or possibly some troops were moved elsewhere on the NWF in that period while still being officially based at Miri Khel?
     
  11. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Hello all,

    I have just received Captain Pereira's records from the MOD after putting in a FOI request about a year ago.

    They only really show his service as an officer (is it possible to get the previous service of someone commissioned from the ranks by the way?).

    The section for campaigns does show:

    Khajuri Operation N.W.F.P. India 1930 to 1931
    Palestine Operations 1935 to 1936

    Which would seem to indicate service in the 1st Batt and 2nd Batt respectively which would tie in with the watch showing "Baluchistan", "Palestine" and "Egypt".

    He was commissioned on 6/3/43 from WO2 and posted to the 9th Batt.

    On 23/7/44 he was "Attached to 11 A&SH owing to change of designation of 9 Seaforth."

    Then on 6/10/44 " Attached 47 West Riding Bn Home Guard for duty as Captain for 'A' & 'Q' duties pending W.O. posting".

    I presume "A & Q" is Adjutant and Quartermaster?

    Then his last posting is 5/7/45 "Attached to 17 PW Camp, Lodge Moor, Sheffield".

    I understand that Lodge Moor was the biggest POW camp in the UK at the time.

    He was finally Struck of Unit Strength 22/8/45 and Released 18/10/45.

    I am wondering if the dedication "Presented by the Officers, NCOs, and Men of C Company" would refer to his last posting as WO2 before his commission or possibly from his time with the 9th Battalion.

    I'd be interested to hear any input anyone might have.

    Thanks. Carl.
     
  12. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    The non World War Campaign Medal Rolls Index on ancestry shows just one entry for him.

    India General Service Medal (1908) with clasp North West Frontier 1930-1931

    281596 PERIERA F. Pte 2/Seaforths. First award of the medal. Originally listed on the roll as Cpl & L/Cpl PERIERA, but these have been crossed through. Medal issued to O.C. 1st Battalion 1/12.1933. Roll is dated 11 Sept 1933.
    The remarks column shows this
    Screenshot 2024-02-20 at 00.24.45.png
     
  13. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Many thanks for the reply.

    That is interesting. The remark says "since deserted" by the look of it and he was tried for desertion in 1933.

    The charge was reduced to absence and he was demoted to private which would also explain the crossings out of his rank.

    It doesn't seem to have harmed his career much. WO2, a commission, then retiring as Captain.
     
  14. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    Thats great to tie it up with his records, must admit I thought it read "since demoted".

    For this part of his record "Then on 6/10/44 " Attached 47 West Riding Bn Home Guard for duty as Captain for 'A' & 'Q' duties pending W.O. posting"
    The Home Guard was stood down 3rd December 1944 so maybe this posting was in anticipation of this & the need to call in all equipment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2024
  15. SMLE

    SMLE Junior Member

    Could well be, and that would also explain the move to 17 PW Camp for the last 6 weeks or so of his career as the Home Guard would have been disbanded.
     

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