Service record & medal entitlement interpretation, 2 West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales' Own)

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by JoeSmith, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. JoeSmith

    JoeSmith Junior Member

    Hi all, I hope you are able to help me in deciphering my late-uncle's WW2 Service records (Uncle Jim served in India/Burma with 2 West Yorks from 1945-47, although he appears to have fallen sick and ended up remaining in Burma after the Battalion had moved on to Java and Singapore). Reading other posts have helped in my understanding of the 'x' codes on the records, which appear on my uncle's record. My questions on the attached Army Form B102 are as follows:

    1. The entry dated 9 March 1945 - what is 'RP BAY' or 'RP BAF'? I thought it might have been a convoy code, but it is back to front if he was moving from the UK to Bombay.

    2. The entry dated 8 August 1945 - is 'ASC' Army Selection Centre (I would not think it is Army Service Corps otherwise it would have said RASC)? And if so, where would that have been? I am also unsure if the writing after ASC is either 'x(4)' or 'z(4)', or, whether it is the code x(4) and the clerk who wrote the entry has placed a 'v' as an insert for the next line.

    3. The entry dated 8 September 1945 - I don't know if this says 'Ind 2w' or something else?

    Like a lot of readers of this forum, Uncle Jim never applied for his campaign medals after the War (although he did have a ribbon bar with 39-45 Star, Burma Star, War and Defence Medal). I have applied for and received his War and Defence Medal, but the MOD Medal Office don't believe he was in Burma before 2 September 1945, so won't budge unless I can prove he was in country before 2 Sept 45. But looking at his record now I don't think he was in India for the 180 days required for the 1939-45 Star. I would therefore be grateful if anyone could provide their opinion on this (I have applied for my uncle's medical records and I am waiting for these in the hope they may shed light on his locations when hospitalised).

    As a final question - Uncle Jim had also served in the RAF Regt from 42-44 in addition to his Army service, and I note on his records he also had Home Guard service (yet to apply for this record). Noting that war service counted double towards the Efficiency Medal, would Home Guard service also count towards this, noting the Home Guard could receive the same medals as the Army?

    Many thanks in advance for your help.

    Attached Files:

  2. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member


    Sorry can't answer any of your queries but was interested to see he was one of those RAF personnel compulsorily transferred to the Brigade of Guards in 1944.

    I think only Coldstream & Irish Guards received such transferees. Interested to see on transfer to Army he was issued CG specific army number rather than General Service number.

    Presume he was transferred out of CG on medical grounds on being graded B2 or was it at his own request?

    Hopefully forum member may be able to assist re your queries.

    Good Luck.

    Steve Y

  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  4. JoeSmith

    JoeSmith Junior Member


    Thanks for your comments - dbf, I was going to contact you regarding inclusion of my uncle on your list, but you've done the honours, so thanks for that and for updating my title. The story I have is that Uncle Jim voluntarily transferred from CG to WY as he wanted to be closer to his sweetheart who he was about to marry, which did occur for a short while. But then he was shipped off to India/Burma for two and a bit years. But they did enjoy a 46-year marriage so it could not have been all bad.
  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Joe
    I recently added war diaries for 1IG in June & July 1944.
    This bn was part of 201 Gds Brigade who were put into a role as a training cadre, specifically to train RAF Regt recruits as guardsmen/reinforcements. From a few mentions in various Guards' Histories, the RAF seemingly sent off the best of their recruits; this training took place near Hawick and apparently Stobs barracks etc wasn't too pleasant for the instructors never mind the recruits; 2 full-time rat catchers were employed according to one account.
  6. Charpoy Chindit

    Charpoy Chindit Junior Member

    I must have missed something here, because I can't see any evidence that he was in 2 W Yorks at all or any hint that he went to Burma before 02/09/45.
  7. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member


    Having had another look at the papers it would appear that MOD have not provided the Army Form B103 form(s) which cover his time in West Yorkshire Regiment after August 1944.

    They will have recorded all his movements and are the source document(s) from which the index card has been updated with abbreviations of the fuller details from the B103.

    The documents may have been lost over the past 70 yrs or MOD have forgotten to forward them to you. It is not unusual and some forum members have received the missing forms after contacting MOD and asking for a further check of their files.

    You may want to contact Glasgow.


    Steve Y
  8. JoeSmith

    JoeSmith Junior Member

    Thanks Steve, the records were obtained via the Guards archives in London, because even though my uncle spent only two months in CG his records remain there forevermore. I have contacted Glasgow on the off chance more info was there, but they have nothing. So it's back to the archivist in London!
  9. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member


    I've learned something new!

    My understanding has always been (from
    other posts on the forum) that when personnel transferred out of a Guards Regiment then their papers went with them - albeit that portion that was created during Guards service could be copied and retained.

    However as you have received papers created post his transfer then clearly his whole papers have been returned to CG on his discharge.

    CG have probably carried out a cull of the papers over the years.


  10. JoeSmith

    JoeSmith Junior Member

    Thanks Steve, I hope the Guards archives haven't destroyed anything! (I'm thinking negligence otherwise). But I'm starting to think the archives may be holding out on me. About 16 years ago a producer from Granada TV was helping me out on the same matter (for a possible TV show) and he gained access to the Guards archives on my behalf. This producer mentioned Army medical form numbers in relation to my uncle's service records, and I only came across this again over the last weekend after having come across our emails which I stored away for a lot of years. I'm starting to get suspicious that I may not have got all the information that I have paid for!
  11. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I think it might be a bit of a leap to assume from this example that Wellington Barracks have culled paperwork in all other cases. I certainly can confirm that they forwarded my grandfather's IG records to Foots Cray when he re-enlisted in RA 1939, over a decade after discharge from IG reserves. However, I never did get around to applying to MOD for copy records held by them, as I was put off by having to pay twice - but in what remained of his IG file there was correspondence referring to his new [RA] Army No. among other later paperwork, including requests for references from potential employers.

    Paperwork was shunted around a bit, most often to do with pension and disability matters. I do remember other members being told that records were forwarded to 'Veterans Agency' and apparently destroyed by them - only for said records to magically reappear at a later date!

    I just think it'd be a bit convoluted as a matter of routine after discharge from Forces, to send records from last unit to the original (Guards) regt of enlistment. (And in this case not even the first unit joined) Having said that, my hunch is based on nothing; I've no explanation as to why there are details of subsequent service in this CG file. :)

    Ref medical records.
    see post 5
  12. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member


    I agree it is hard to build a solid evidential case on the basis of this one example but -

    CG have certainly "culled" WW1 era records. Almost 20 years ago they only provided the 4 page attestation for my gf who served 1905/1908 & 1914/1919 but there are almost 30 pages on Ancestry. Same with his brother in law who served continuously 1909/1919 - 5 pages provided including a cover sheet stating B103, B178 Medical Forms, B120 Conduct sheets etc sent to Chelsea Hospital in 1930.

    I think culling will also have inevitably taken place by now on WW2 era files in accordance with their document destruction policy rather than "negligence".

    I received no medical forms (B178/179) from CG for my Dad in 2012 except for the top portion of his post POW repatriation Medical form (AF 3109?).

  13. JoeSmith

    JoeSmith Junior Member

    Steve/All, thanks for your comments thus far. I do note that no Form B103 was included with my uncle's papers when I applied for them, so I'll check with Guards archives to see what they've got.
  14. JoeSmith

    JoeSmith Junior Member


    the latest on this - I contacted the Archivist at CG for the missing B103. In the two years since I received my uncle's Service records, his file has been misplaced and is now missing!

    The Archivist is a Guardsman, who advises me that the log is blank as to where the file went (sounds like the Archivist changes, so I'm guessing it's a secondary duty for these guys).

    Interesting times. I may be waiting some time to see the B103, if it ever existed.
  15. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Joe,

    Sorry to hear that news.

    You are correct - as I understand it "archivist staff" in all Guards Regiments are serving soldiers.


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