Snipers...

Discussion in 'Veteran Accounts' started by sapper, Jun 25, 2012.

Tags:
  1. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    One thing that angers me beyond the normal, was Snipers that stayed behind.and continued killing after the front had moved on.

    I could never understand why a sniper shooting men in the back was allowed to surrender and get away with it...NO way.. And it happened quite a lot. As well as Nazi sympathisers that shot at us from the rear. More often than is generally realised.... We took out several snipers..

    The one chink in their armour, is that they have to get a good field of vision, and that means height, So that is where you look for them.....

    Now here is where we get into the Tall stories area. A close friend of mine (Long departed) had a Sniper in a church tower. He was a Captain in the RECCE.He tossed up with his Sgt which of them should go get him.

    The Sgt lost the toss, and went up there and shot him.

    Rest In Peace Captain Jack...
     
  2. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Senior Member

    The staying of snipers in the rear areas of an enemy has a psycholigical aspect. Normaly the snipers infiltrate the rear area to deliver data´s of enemy movements, strength and so on. But sometimes they get the task to kill enemy soldiers to spread fear and make them feeling unsafe. I can understand that this is the most hated person in war.
    A sniper who use towers or other exposed points is nothing more than a idiot or unexperienced. Normaly you have to stay in lower grounds except you have prepared your escape from such buildings.
    But in fact, any sniper of each site had done his job. Some have been surely more cheap killers which had fun to kill or more to injure others to see them suffer, but such subjects are living all over the world.

    It would be nice if you could tell more of such events, Sir but only if you want.
     
  3. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Brian,

    From what I have read snipers were given no quarter when engaged, whichever army you were serving.

    I have just finished off a few 1/6 scale Allied soldiers, one of which is a sniper from the Royal Marine Commando's.

    Regards
    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Senior Member

    Well made, Tom!
     
  5. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Ulrich,

    Thanks.
    Posing the soldier is right on the limits of articulation and it took me quite a time.
    I had to take the photographs in the workshop as ithe weather here lately has been to wet to go out in the garden.
    Just a couple of hours ago we had a very heavy thunder storm with torrential rain.
    I will have to wait until after the family holiday to take some outdoor shots, if the weather is up to it.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  6. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Tom thank you for posting
    excellent work
     
  7. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  8. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    The hatred of snipers goes right back to the American Civil War. Frank Wilkeson, a young gunner with Grant's army in the 1864 campaign, talked about it.

    "There was an unwritten code of honor among the infantry that forbade the shooting of men while attending to the imperative calls of nature, and these sharpshooting brutes were constantly violating that rule. I hated sharpshooters, both Confederate and Union, in those days, and I was always glad to see them killed."
     
  9. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Brian,

    I was just reading about the 9th Bn Durham Light Infantry's attack at Lingevres on 14 June 1944 and the result of German sniping - panzer grenadiers of Panzer Lehr Division - then onto WW2Talk; and behold, your thread about snipers.

    Anecdotal evidence from two Officers in 9DLI:

    Lt DS Taylor, Platoon Commander in 'A' Company "...our Company Commander [Major D'Arcy Irvine] fell first with a head wound. Soon after I followed with a lucky one through the chest. Snipers in the trees were the cause of the trouble..."

    Due to an overriding imperative 'A' and 'B' Companies had had to advance across open cornfields in day light. The CO, Lt-Col Woods, was accompanying these companies.

    Lt Jack Williams, Assault Pioneer Platoon "...within five minutes the only effective officers were the Lt-Col and his IO (Lt Reed). This clean sweep of leaders was proof enough that snipers were just waiting for a glimpse of a revolver, a pair of binoculars or any visible sign of a key man.

    I myself was hit while running back to my Carrier after going up to the CO to tell him that I had just seen Major D'Arcy Irvine lying in the corn with a nasty head wound and [then] his HQ was wiped out."

    Lt-Col Woods was killed when a mortar round hit his Carrier. His IO, Lt Reed, had a miraculous escape, sustaining only superficial wounds.

    Lt Jack Williams was hit in the thighs by MG fire and said to his Sergeant, Charles Eagles "Take a look Eagles - if they've shot my balls off, kill me." Priceless!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  10. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Steve:

    From what I have read, many of the German snipers in Normandy were not strictly snipers at all, if by that we mean men with special training, scoped rifles, smocks, etc. The German riflemen opposite 50th Div at that stage were from several panzer divisions, and they knew how to use rifle fire aggressively and intelligently. Brigadier Hargest, the NZ observer with XXX Corps, was alarmed to see 151 Bde officers displaying binocs, pistols, and other signs of rank so freely.
     
  11. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Any unusual shape around was a cause for suspicion. A burst from a Bren... if it did nothing else gave you a sense of security.

    There were several instances of Civilians shooting our men sometimes they were women.They got short thrift, they were not going to give up anyway....One of our sappesr was attacked by a young woman with a knife...They had lost their German boy friends and husbands....

    We were quite surprised at the enmity that greeted us from the Norman people, We were not looking to be admired but the enmity from the locals came as a surprise I must admit....
     
  12. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Steve:

    From what I have read, many of the German snipers in Normandy were not strictly snipers at all, if by that we mean men with special training, scoped rifles, smocks, etc. The German riflemen opposite 50th Div at that stage were from several panzer divisions, and they knew how to use rifle fire aggressively and intelligently. Brigadier Hargest, the NZ observer with XXX Corps, was alarmed to see 151 Bde officers displaying binocs, pistols, and other signs of rank so freely.

    I've read the same thing, Alan. You would have thought an experienced Division like 50 Div would have been more worldly wise, but when you consider the attrition rate - especially amongst junior officers - it is actually very easy to see why this was a problem.

    The British OTU churned out bright, new and shiny Lieutenants and off the went into the killing fields... No time to assimilate.

    One can only wonder how less experienced Divisions - that's is probably all but a couple of the rest on the Allied side - managed?!?

    What do you think about Hargest - is his observation fair? He appears to have been discredited in some sources... a POHM ('Limey' to you) basher!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  13. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    Late 1940/41 Snipers were being recruted from many british infantry (& other) regts for training.
    My father + 2 other OR's & 2 officers from 16 Royal Fusiliers, 47 Div were selected and all passed the cource & received their Sniper badges.
    As usual among Vets he would'nt talk about this episode in his life, so i suppose it works both ways realy with the subject of this thread.
    Best
    Rob
     
  14. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    I can appreciate the skills of a trained sniper, especially in front line role, taking out Officers and 'targets of opportunity' but I have some difficulty in appreciating the 'behind the advancing line' role.
    Of course there will be the disruption and lowering of morale effect but, unless the 'sniper' is superbly trained and has an escape route, is this not something of a suicide mission?
    I think I can understand the hatred for snipers (in any role) that combat troops felt. As a civilian, without military or wartime experience, I can only imagine it must take a particular type of person to be a determined 'one shot killer' in any situation.
    I can, however, believe that wartime experiences could instill the desire to 'take out' any of the enemy forces and face the consequences if captured.
    I silently thank every veteran for the fact that I have never had to face this quandry, whether to take a human life.....or not. It's not the sort of question I feel comfortable asking a veteran or myself.
     
  15. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    I can appreciate the skills of a trained sniper, especially in front line role, taking out Officers and 'targets of opportunity' but I have some difficulty in appreciating the 'behind the advancing line' role.
    Of course there will be the disruption and lowering of morale effect but, unless the 'sniper' is superbly trained and has an escape route, is this not something of a suicide mission?
    I think I can understand the hatred for snipers (in any role) that combat troops felt. As a civilian, without military or wartime experience, I can only imagine it must take a particular type of person to be a determined 'one shot killer' in any situation.
    I can, however, believe that wartime experiences could instill the desire to 'take out' any of the enemy forces and face the consequences if captured.
    I silently thank every veteran for the fact that I have never had to face this quandry, whether to take a human life.....or not. It's not the sort of question I feel comfortable asking a veteran or myself.

    Mike,

    The taking of human life was, in fact, their job to perform. Difficult for many but not really a quandry. They had no choice.

    But, as Rob notes, they rarely talk about that aspect and while they have tremendous pride in their service, I have never heard a veteran talk about his personal 'score'. That I'm afraid is a very private burden most carry.
     
  16. DanielG

    DanielG Senior Member

    My grandparents new a fellow that was a sniper in the first war. He lived up the coast in the bush on the coast of British Columbia and lived by himself miles from anyone. He wore a wool Stanfield shirt summer and winter and nothing else. By all accounts he was a nice enough chap and always glad of a visitor but he just was not all there (and I don't wonder).
     
  17. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    It is not snipers as such, that angered me. It is those that stayed behind, concealed and shot men in the back after the active areas had moved forward, leaving them isolated. That it seemed to me verged on murder.
     
  18. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Senior Member

    The normal role of a sniper isn´t to kill civilians or soldiers out of fun. That is the role of really criminals. To leave snipers behind the enemies line is a normal habit and we trained it often enough. But normally you will stay as a team and not as a lone wolf. And if you were left, you have a order to do something, like scouting or sometimes to take out high ranked enemy officers starting from a Captains level at minimum if you won´t find a better target. So this is normal duty. But as everywhere else the war brings out the dark side of men and so it happens to snipers too. Some would have killed out of fun or their "Instinct" to do this and some would have seen themsleves in a hopeless situation, no connection to the own troops and with the guess that they will be killed if captured. And such guys can get a sense like " If i have to die, i kill as much as i can!" Not correct but seen from a psychological POV a bit understandable.
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Kosovo = No saluting, just bracing up to officers.

    Iraq = No saluting or bracing up to officers.

    Bosnia = A joke :lol: (It was a TA tour)
     
  20. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    What do you think about Hargest - is his observation fair? He appears to have been discredited in some sources... a POHM ('Limey' to you) basher!


    I think Hargest was an honest reporter according to his lights; he certainly went to a lot of tight places. War diaries and survivors' accounts by 50th Div personnel confirm that some of his criticisms were justified. Some students of the British Army in the Normandy campaign rely on him too much, though, and they forget that Hargest also said that 50th Div mainly fought well. I will address all this at greater length in the '50th Div in Normandy' thread.
     

Share This Page