SS Glen sunk in the River Forth 22/11/1940

I’m looking for some help to find out more details about the SS (HMS?) Glen that exploded and sunk in the River Forth on 22nd November 1940.

The boat was carrying ammunition between Grangemouth and Crombie when it disappeared and is assumed to have blown up en route after hitting a mine.

On board was Ralph Paterson, Merchant Navy, who is commemorated on the Bo’ness War Memorial. We know this from contemporary newspaper reports. Ralph and his four crew mates, whose details I cannot find, are not recorded on the Scottish National War Memorial Roll of Honour - or anywhere else as far as I can make out.

The vessel is also strangely absent from the records.

No mention in Admiralty War Diary of Glen, but on 22nd November 1940 it mentions that:

"Mining
River Forth between Grangemouth on the West and Crombie Pier on the East is closed to all traffic. (C.in C. Rosyth 1547/22)."

https://cd.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media...-branch/pdfs/1940/war_diary_naval_1940_11.pdf

The wreck of the Glen is still there. Here it is indicated at
Glen: Crombie Point, Upper Firth Of Forth | Canmore

Can anyone shed any light on this vessel, and the other men who were also killed on board?

 

Gow67,

Nothing found on the site under the ship's name, either Crombie or Grangemouth and variations on the Firth of Forth.

I did find this thread about another ship that a mine on 29/9/1940 and perhaps "In From the Cold" researchers can help you? Billy McGee the author of post there maybe the link to them. See: New CWGC Commemoration 19th February 2021

Try a local historian, albeit his focus is on the defences. He is Gordon Barclay, who lives near the Forth Bridge and his 'About' & email is on: About & Contact - Gordon Barclay

A desperate thought: did Scotland have the local Coroner system then? In theory their papers should be in the public domain.

 

Look him up on Scotland’s people.

 

I have checked that already and strangely he is not mentioned. He not mentioned in the Deaths at Sea Register either.

For Gow 67, re Ralph Paterson do you know anything else about him such as his age and date and place of birth?

Regards
Hugh

 

Many thanks for the replies so far. Just attaching a news article. His death is not registered on Scotlandspeople. The vessel 'Glen' also does not appear on ther Tower Hill Memorial. Is it possible for a ship itself to be a non-comm? Will contact those two guys mentioned thanks.

 

This may be him: Name: Paterson, Ralph . Service number: 1080946 . Place of birth: Bo'ness . Date of... | The National Archives.

 

Thanks! I've sent away for those records, awaiting receipt. Keep you posted if they shed any light on the story. I've also got other MN records that show Ralph served on SS Floristan and RMS Maloja, earlier in 1940. But cannot find anything on Glen and who was also on vessel.

 

The file BT 390/103/57 will only cover his service on T124 agreements. He actually was engaged aboard HMS MALOJA (T124) on 28 August 1940 less than 3 months before his death but other sources suggest HMS MALOJA was serving on convoy duty at this time. Although the newspaper reports an age of 56 in 1940 against his date of birth in 1887, I think it is certainly worth checking.

Regards
Hugh

 

Thanks Hugh. Yes - he was born on 2nd May 1887 so he was 53 years old. Also slight confusion on Scotlandspeople that his uncle with exactly the same name also died earlier in 1940. Otherwise I cannot find him anywhere. It looks like his body was never found, the death wasn't registered. This is highly unusual. Later I intend to trawl the newspapers on the Fife side of the Forth to see if I can find any reports of the incident. Thanks again to all have responded so far.

 

I agree and for the other 4 crew members too.

This looks like it was some kind of steam lighter/barge so not actually a merchant ship as such. The vessel was not HMS either. I presume you have seen this?

Read more at wrecksite: https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?176012


Regards
Hugh

 

Reference to incident in the book "The Forth Front" by local archaeologist and historian Geoff Bailey. This is where i picked up the possibility it could be HMS Glen. Intend to contact him as well.

 

I think 'HMS GLEN' [*see edit] is probably a red herring. To be given the prefix 'HMS' the lighter/barge must have been commissioned into the RN. I can find no record of this. Also, the crew would be RN, RNR or T124X. If that is the case then there are 5 Naval or Naval Auxiliary Personnel whose deaths appear to be not registered anywhere and that are uncommemorated by the CWGC.

Edit* interesting - she is in the 1940 Navy List - GLEN, Steam Lighter. Crombie.
She would be Admiralty owned and civilian manned.

Regards
Hugh

 

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edit...ighter+glen+1940&pg=PT153&printsec=frontcover

Her master is commemorated on a family memorial: Robert Alexander Johnstone (1913-1940) - Find a...

'Naval armament vessels GLEN and ISLEFORD sunk by enemy mines: loss of crews: consideration of compensation to dependants.'
This file was originally catalogued under more than one subject code. These subject... | The National Archives

 

Nice find Richelieu. ADM 1/19244 should list those aboard and should hopefully prove evidence for the CWGC

Regards
Hugh

 

Peculiar it be.

The S.S. Isleford crew members that were lost in '42 all appear to be commemorated on CWGC (link to one crew member as an example below).

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2457972/hector-macnicol/

A loss/casualty reporting difference between 1940 and 1942?

Always remember, never forget,

Jim.

EDIT: Courtesy CWGC (aside from first named on list) via Fold3.



2nd EDIT: Yes, different circumstances of loss:

Isleford explosion 80 years ago 'could have destroyed Wick harbour'

The crew of the Glen deserve no less.

 

Absolutely terrific find Richelieu. I will order that record from TNA. I will post up the other crew's details when I find them. Outstanding detective work, hopefully should ensure they are commemorated. Thanks a million to all who responded.

 

Robert Alexander Johnstone born Dundee 1913 Dis. A number R92130 has 3 cards in the Fourth Register of Seamen 1 x CR1 and 2 x CR2 last known ship SS MINORCA, November 1939.

Fireman/Greaser, Ralph Paterson born Bo'ness 1887 Dis. A number 1080946 has 1 x CR1 and 2 x CR2 cards last known ship HMS MAJOLA, August 1940.

Unless I am missing something, I find it really strange that both men have no death registered on ScotlandsPeople, are not mentioned in the 1939-1953 Merchant Seamen Deaths nor in the Deaths at Sea Register.

GLEN, carrying ammunition would have been on war service so I cannot understand why they would not commemorate her crew. However, nothing surprises me with the commemoration of merchant seamen. Even if they were non-registered seamen at the time, they should still be commemorated on the civilian register.

Regards
Hugh

 

Perhaps this book could help:
Shipwrecks of the Forth and Tay: Bob Baird: 978-1904445-74-6 - Whittles Publishing

 

My notes says that Glen (471t) was lost after a mine strike in the Firth of Forth, off Low Torry. [Though other sources says was sunk after an air attack or from striking ice (!)]

As has already been noted, for some reason CWGC don't list any casualties from the loss.

Regards,

Steve

 

The Luftwaffe dropped a total of 59 mines in the FoF in October 1940, the last time - as far as I know - 16 of them on 24 October (KTB SKL).
I am not aware of any missions in November (information without guarantee)

The Küstenfliegergruppe 506, which was deployed for anti-ship operations, was only allowed to operate up to 60nm off the Scottish coast, the FoF area was off limits (KTB KüFlGr 506).