SS report on conduct of British POWs in Germany

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by PsyWar.Org, Jan 13, 2013.

  1. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    A fascinating report Steve. Quite incredible that the WOs possibly betrayed several escape attempts.

    MI9 also came across resistance in the Army to the giving of Escape and Evasion advice. "The British Army fights to the death" being the attitude.
    The Submarine Service also thought the lectures could affect morale and would only allow submarine crews on special operations to receive E&E briefings.

    Below I have posted the MI9 document I found at Kew whilst researching my father's escape from Stalag XXA. It makes an interesting read but I was suprised to discover that some of the senior Warrant Officers discouraged talk of escape and even betrayed escape plans to the Germans.

    My father, Sgt F Foster and his pal L/Cpl A Coulthard get a mention on the last page , as persistent escapers, for reaching the Swiss border. After that Coulthard made 8 more attempts before his sad death on the Forced march!

    View attachment 97286

    View attachment 97287

    View attachment 97288

    Steve
     
  2. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Be very interested to hear his opinion on it and his experiences as a POW.

    The RN received the least number of Escape and Evasion lectures. Only Royal Marines, for example, were briefed on it before Overlord.

    It'll be great to see you at Kew on 29th. I tend to be there either on a Tuesday or Thursday so will make a special effort to be there that day - although for domestic reasons it's hard to commit to exact days.
     
  3. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    . Unteroffizier Benno F. bellowed orders for
    Corporal Reynolds to climb the girder, but, convinced that the tirade was all bluff,
    Reynolds walked away in protest. The German NCO thereupon shot and killed him".

    http://www.csub.edu/~mbaker2/white.pdf

    I enjoyed the post as well and was very proud of the British behavior but was wondering how they got away with it.

    Weren't their lives in peril at all times? I can't imagine Russian or Polish POWs lodging complaints against their guards, but this might be one of the many areas of WWII in which I have a lot to learn.
     
  4. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Dave...well, the British were holding many thousands of Germans POW too, remember? ;) You can't say the same for the Poles....or - ahem - the Soviets! (but for entirely different reasons, of course...)

    I think there's a thread on AHF presently that discusses GERMAN POW complaints when in British custody! :D

    Lee - a technical question??? Although the report goes on to discuss Home-sent food parcels (and I presume the Red Cross parcel system too is meant here)....BEFORE that it mentions that the POW's regular rations were better too...

    I thought the Geneva Convention on the treatment of POWS only required that POWs receive the same "ration" level of calories as the local population???
     
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Great stuff.

    It's reminiscent of Reinhold Eggers's books about his time as commandant of Colditz (which I cheerfully recommend).

    He simply couldn't believe that Officers wouldn't behave 'like officers' in captivity. After a while you almost feel sorry for his offended/confused Prussian military sensibilities.
     
  6. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member

    An entertaining text.
    Some things are recognizable... but...the translated german text is too... abundant, too liberal for the taste of an SS official in 1942.
    Something tells me, something is wrong here.

    An example is :" You can see that the uniform they wear is of much better material than the German uniform."
    Really? I got the impression the british gear, especially that of 1940-1941 was terrible and cursed by the men (itchy, heavy, more heavy when wet).


    Where does this text originate from ?
    "MI-9" ..is not enough.

    Were these texts spoken by german POW in England overheard by the british microphone "bugs" ?
    Because that gives a different "ring" to it, than an official SS report to the higher hierarchy, -eventually- Himmler (?)..
     
  7. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Lee,

    I have just finished reading your most excellent post.

    Many thanks for sharing such an enlightening document.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  8. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey


    Phylo, regarding the same rations as the local population, is that what the Conventions say? I'm only going by the Allied Safe Conduct Passes (sample here: http://www.psywar.org/product_1944ZG061.php) that were dropped on the Germans, but they mention that under the terms of the Hague and Geneva Conventions that German POW would receive the same quality rations as the Allied forces.

    Could it be that Wehrmacht rations were better than German civilian rations?
     
  9. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey


    All it says in the text to the MI9 Historical Record about this is:

    "...That British prisoners’ morale was incredibly high is proved by the translation of an SS Report on Questions of Internal Security (12 August 1943) which is included for interest at Appendix B."

    Appendix B is what I have reproduced and consists purely of this English translation with no other information about its origin.

    I must confess to having little knowledge on the relative merits of British battledress compared with German. But this report is dated in the summer of 1943 by which time weren't the German uniforms suffering greatly from material shortages?

    The mention of Brits speaking impeccable German also strikes as a little odd. However, this report appears to be collections of isolated grumbles from the German civilian population which in themselves may be exaggerated.

    I will see if I can find out any more about the original document as I would expect to find it elsewhere in the MI9 archives, hopefully including a photostat of the original document. My impression is that it has come from a captured document rather than picked up from German POWs.
     
  10. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Great stuff.

    It's reminiscent of Reinhold Eggers's books about his time as commandant of Colditz (which I cheerfully recommend).

    He simply couldn't believe that Officers wouldn't behave 'like officers' in captivity. After a while you almost feel sorry for his offended/confused Prussian military sensibilities.

    VP when I was transcribing it a scene from 'The Colditz Story' was floating around my head. It's the middle of the night and the British contingent have been called out to Appel. The Brits are mingling around, singing, being a general rabble and ignoring the German guards.

    The Camp security officer keeps insisting he will give the order to open fire if they don't come to order when one of the Brits shouts out "FIRE!". All hell breaks loose and the security officer screams "Stop shooting! stop shooting!"

    Camp commandant says to the Senior British Officer, "Bring your men to order else there will be bloodshed. Please Col". One word from the SBO, all singing stops and all line up to attention. Cue a quizzical look on the face of the camp security officer... :huh:
     
  11. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Why? Did they use a special Nazi pen or something?
    Have to say the direct quotes read fine to me.

    Show me a squaddie, or 'civil servant' who doesn't habitually moan about their own issued stuff. The grass is always greener.

    Even by '42, the pinch was being felt on German production lines.
    The design of German Uniform can essentially be described as good, but the materials steadily degraded towards the cheaper end. Any German Military man with prewar service, even those in the generally poorer-equipped SS, would be aware that things were not quite as they used to be re. the basic Uniform. (Don't quote me, but I seem to recall there was also a general feeling among German troops that their base uniform was too 'light' and not quite suited to the harsh world of field living. They certainly confirmed this in Russia.)

    Perhaps also of note; by '44 Germany was essentially copying the pattern of Commonwealth Battle Dress with the M44 - the materials may have been rough, but were also tough, and imitation is indeed a form of flattery.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  12. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Here is the full text of the main narrative of the MI9 Historical Report Arcre - MI9 Historical Report (For formatting reasons it's a tricky one to post here)

    There are also several hundreds of pages of appendices, some of which I will add over the coming weeks.
     
  13. rockape252

    rockape252 Senior Member

    Hi,

    My Father who was a working class man spoke German, perhaps with war approaching it was taught at his Grammer School, or maybe he opted for it as a "second language".

    Is it not possible that quite a few POWs either knew "some" German before capture and sharply honed up their education so as to really annoy the Enemy.

    Even though the POWs in Stalag IX AH (Closter Haina) where my Father was a POW couldn't escape they certainly made life a misery for the Germans.


    Regards, Mick D.
     
  14. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Looking at the surface, Eggers comes across as one of the old school.One might associate him with those who thought those in the National Socialism system were the lower end of society.I would be very surprised to told he was a member of the Nazi Party.

    But to get back to the assessment of the British character,I am reminded of the jottings made by Hitler's circle of his table talk....every word recorded in order that Hitler's wishes,although not directed by him would, if challenged would counter...."but it is the will of the Fuhrer"

    At the dinner table on the night of 22 July 1941....dinners would go on well into the night with those there, not confident to withdraw, before the Fuhrer retired to bed.

    The topic was British arrogance which Hitler exclaimed that "all Englishmen (all Britons were deemed to be English generally by the Germans) are superior to the German in one respect...that of pride.Only the man who knows how to give orders has pride".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2016
  15. At Home Dad (Returning)

    At Home Dad (Returning) Well-Known Member

    "in 1933 Eggers was denounced by six of his colleagues to the Nazis who accused him of being a left-winger and an internationalist"
     
  16. Steve Foster

    Steve Foster Senior Member

    In May last year I had the honour of visiting Stalag XXA in Thorun, Poland. Unlike many hutted POW camps which have long gone, because XXA was an old Prussian fort, it is still there.

    Fort 13, where my father did his time, is well preserved because it is owned by the Polish military. After our walk around the fort, our guide showed us the "Cooler Cell" where Brit POWs were confined for various wrong doings (in the eyes of the Germans). My father did 3 weeks there after his escape in '42.

    It had been bricked up for some time and then "found"; it was a 73 year old time capsule of British Army graffiti - quite amazing. Attached below are just some of the hundreds of inscriptions by the inmates - and all showing their defiance to their captors. Please excuse the bad language but it does add to the authenticity. They obviously could not have cared less what punishment their defiant attitude would bring.

    The last image is of the bricked up doorway which had only recently been discovered.

    Cooler 4.jpg

    Cooler 5.jpg

    Cooler 6.jpg

    View attachment 93183

    View attachment 93184

    Cooler 10.jpg

    View attachment 93186

    Steve
     
    RosyRedd, canuck, von Poop and 2 others like this.
  17. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Member

    As an American, I enjoyed reading this thread immensely. The original post was entertaining. I can see why it is "unintentionally funny". Much can be said about not only the congratulatory posts, but the thoughtfulness and the depth of knowledge of some of the others. They were extraordinary. Well done to all.
     
  18. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  19. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    The best thread on the forum this year too.
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    :lol:


    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=97964&d=1358713733


    That is the best pic posted on the forum this year so far.
    :)
     

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