Good points all guys. There were so many "ifs and "Buts" to this campaign but I would tend to agree with Dead, they were in trouble from 22nd June 1941 and definitely doomed on Dec 8 1941.
the 6th army did have mobile units.they should have bounced the volga early on,taken out reinforcements into stalingrad,thus capturing the main road,rail and river traffic north and south.yours,4th wilts.
stalingrad was the huge communication hub for the whole southern u.s.s.r.if you hold that,surely you are holding all the cards.just look at a map.yours,4th wilts.
Exactly. It was demonstrated in the First World War that Germany could not fight on two fronts.As a "modern" power, Germany was doomed to defeat whenever it chose expansion on two fronts.Both world wars were remote from the 1870 war,technology had moved on but still a fighting force depended on large number of combat troops on the ground which Germany did not have enough.Further due to its geophyical postion, Germany could not command the high seas and imports, (petrol and ore etc) very important for waging war were denied to them. . Good points all guys. There were so many "ifs and "Buts" to this campaign but I would tend to agree with Dead, they were in trouble from 22nd June 1941 and definitely doomed on Dec 8 1941. I'm not so sure Harry... I think the 2 month delay in the spring of 1941 (to rescue Musso & the Italians in the Balkans) was a fatal setback. The Germans waited too long to invade Greece, they should have done it at least a month earlier. They should have invaded USSR at the beginning of May. They invaded Greece/Yugoslavia with 33 divisions, and fighting ended about the end of April. If 110 - 120 German divisions are in place on the Soviet border beginning of May, the other 30 or so divisions could be moved quickly from Greece to participate in the attack. (some moving through Bulgaria to attack via Moldova.
At one point, the Red Army was only holding on to a very thin sliver of Stalingrad and the only reinforcements were coming by ferry across the Volga River. If Paulus could have stymied these reinforcements by concentrating artillery barrages on both the debarkation and landing sites along with all his available airpower to strafe the river itself, he may have forced the Soviets to surrender in the city itself... May I disagree? 62th Army (V.I.Chuikov) was holding by a cat's whisker but striclty on purpose. 62A was dripfed only while the majority of reinforcements went to the Fronts beside to launch Op. Uranus later. This had the effect of providing the Germans with the illusion of a victory, forcing them to dedicate more and more troops for the "un ptit poo" while neclecting the flanks. More Maskirovka on the Russian side, Chuikov himself had not even been told there were massive forces being brought up on his sides, he was made aware of Op. Uranus only a couple of days before it's onset. Talk about secrecy!
I readily admit to not being as "au fais" with the Eastern Front as many others on this forum however it seems to me that Hitler did not have the required respect for his enemy and its geographic location. I say Hitler because he set the parameters not the experienced generals. From what I have read, they were aware of the dangers and the history of those who have invaded Russia. As you say in the quote, and I agree it is with hindsight, you would be thinking along the lines of what an American or British structure may do in preparation. The German war machine was renowned for their effective and efficient use of rail systems. Surely that "machine" would have pencilled in these requirements from a logistical aspect. Did Hitler have such contempt for Stalin and his people that the normal macro and micro preparations were thrown out of the window. Rail, Locomotives, Rolling Stock and trucks (to name a few) supplied under Lend and Lease were paramount in the ability of Russia to resist. (There have been many pro Stalinites on this forum who have denied that this assistance was crucial in the ability of Russia to survive) So, was it Hitler that lost it by his interference or could Germany never have succeeded. From my readings there was No repeat No (ala Monty) objections to Barbarossa by anyone on the German General Staff except by Von Bock and Halder had reservations. But by the time of Stalingrad as Spidge points out the cumulative problems of logistics, terrain and weather and distance were already straining the werhmacht. Could the 6th Army bypassed Stalingrad?Sure, but then we'd be talking about how the 6th army invaded the caucusus with a exposed northern flank and paid for that. The germans planned and prepared for 6 wk campaign. In the 7th week they began to get a glimpse of potential serious problems to come.
There was no way to take the Caucusus oilfields leaving Stalingrad untaken to threaten your rear left flank. Unless you'd managed to get the Afrika Korps through Suez and up the other way - but if they'd been strong enough to do that Stalingrad probably couldn't have held. In reality Germany was on a highway to hell as soon as it became clear that the swift and total collapse of Soviet military and civil authority was a delusion. If it hadn't been Stalingrad, it would've been somewhere else. Regards, MikB
There was no way to take the Caucusus oilfields leaving Stalingrad untaken to threaten your rear left flank. Unless you'd managed to get the Afrika Korps through Suez and up the other way - but if they'd been strong enough to do that Stalingrad probably couldn't have held. In reality Germany was on a highway to hell as soon as it became clear that the swift and total collapse of Soviet military and civil authority was a delusion. If it hadn't been Stalingrad, it would've been somewhere else. Regards, MikB copy that
Well Stragically Paulas should avoided being encircled, He was assured by Hitler and OKW not to try and break out. He should have disobeyed the order. He would have lost his job but the 6th Army would have been saved (for now). My own personel opinion is that Hitler sacrificed the 6th a sort of fatilistic survival of the fittest scenario hge was prone too so anything PAulas would have done would have been in vain. Kev I believe that your personal opinion has support from what I've read in numerous Hitler bios (can only imagine wht FBI woud wongly conclude if they raided my house and saw all the books on Hitler and Stalin) As the war turn progressively against him Hitler's Gotterdamerung (pardon bad german spelling) fantasies certainly increased.
May I disagree? 62th Army (V.I.Chuikov) was holding by a cat's whisker but striclty on purpose. 62A was dripfed only while the majority of reinforcements went to the Fronts beside to launch Op. Uranus later. This had the effect of providing the Germans with the illusion of a victory, forcing them to dedicate more and more troops for the "un ptit poo" while neclecting the flanks. More Maskirovka on the Russian side, Chuikov himself had not even been told there were massive forces being brought up on his sides, he was made aware of Op. Uranus only a couple of days before it's onset. Talk about secrecy! What fun would this be if we all agreed? Okay now I have to get out one of my Stalingrad books. I'm just not sure of the on purpose part. If Chuikov was wiped out the Germans then would hve held all of the city. Intially at least it seems he was holding on as something of a symbolic (not sure that's the correct word) act to maintain Russian moral.
You are right in part, but you also have to see that the Russians were extending a string to the German cat, that is, distracting them and drawing more and more troops into the trap. Stalingrad itself was more than a symbol, it didn't matter much if it was lost or not, what mattered was compromising more Germans into the trap. Stalino in the Ukraine had been easily lost and Uncle Joe didn't have a heart attack.
You are right in part, but you also have to see that the Russians were extending a string to the German cat, that is, distracting them and drawing more and more troops into the trap. Stalingrad itself was more than a symbol, it didn't matter much if it was lost or not, what mattered was compromising more Germans into the trap. Stalino in the Ukraine had been easily lost and Uncle Joe didn't have a heart attack. I was thinking more on what you wrote and chewed on it some more and think I more clearly saw the point you were making. As you pointed out CHuikov had no idea he was being used as a tool (not that it would have mattered much if he had). Am I correct in saying that the Russians used the situation the Germans forced Chuikov into to focus there attention while they built up for their offensive? Although the germans were aware that the Russians were ammassing forces just not the size or where they intended to strike along the front. In "The War In Europe" Davies disputes the military significance of the Russian win at Stalingrad (pointing out that the germans lost as many troops elsewhere on the front and more were captured in North Africa) but says he symbolic significance of Stalingrad to the Soviet Union and the western allies was enormous. yours GM
As you pointed out CHuikov had no idea he was being used as a tool (not that it would have mattered much if he had). He sure was! Within the tough world of Soviet OpSec, Chuikov was informed of Op. Uranus only two days before the onset! Am I correct in saying that the Russians used the situation the Germans forced Chuikov into to focus there attention while they built up for their offensive? That's my point. Chuikov and the city itself were the bait the Germans were swallowing, hook, reel, cane, the whole tackle. Although the germans were aware that the Russians were ammassing forces just not the size or where they intended to strike along the front. Notvery much, they weren't. Google the word maskirovka The Germans were dimly aware that "something" was afoot, but effectives (not to mention Order of Battle), Schwerpunkte, timings, etc were complete mistery. In "The War In Europe" Davies disputes the military significance of the Russian win at Stalingrad (pointing out that the germans lost as many troops elsewhere on the front and more were captured in North Africa) but says he symbolic significance of Stalingrad to the Soviet Union and the western allies was enormous. yours GM I cannot agree. Remember that in Op. Uranus (the offensive leading to the encirclement) four armies were bagged or seriously compromised: 6th (Ger), 4th Pz (Ger), 3rd (Rom) and 4th (Rom). The meaning of this is that when an army is surrounded not only the frontline troops (infantrymen, artillerymen, tankers, artillerymen, etc) are captured, it means that all the precious and irreplaceable Headquarter troops (that are unable to escape in time) are captured as well, and this includes Staff, Supply, Transportation, Comms, Construction Engineers, etc., etc., that is all thos grey haired REMFs who are absolutely essential to the functioning of large bodies of troops. Anyway, the Russians caught a large bag, and caught the specialists too, I can't imagine the mayhem that followed when entire Army and Corps staffs simply disappeared! http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/Graphics/uranusmap1.jpg It was a symbol of course as you say, the dogged defence of Stalingrad, but also there was the demonstrated ability of the Red Army to inflict a defeat and launch two offensives while being able to absorb Op. Wintergewitter. The Soviets could roll the Axis back!
but stalingrad was not just symbolic was it.huge hub of rail,road and river traffic,was it not.yours,4th wilts.
I cannot agree. Remember that in Op. Uranus (the offensive leading to the encirclement) four armies were bagged or seriously compromised: 6th (Ger), 4th Pz (Ger), 3rd (Rom) and 4th (Rom). It was a symbol of course as you say, the dogged defence of Stalingrad, but also there was the demonstrated ability of the Red Army to inflict a defeat and launch two offensives while being able to absorb Op. Wintergewitter. The Soviets could roll the Axis back![/quote] Geez Za you're treatin' me like a redheaded step-child here. Try and agree with a guy and look what happens Well made arguments all. regards GM "A spoonfull of sugar helps the medicine go down." Mary Poppins
