Stirling found in Holland report via Quantas interview.

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Harry Ree, Oct 30, 2011.

  1. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The Quantas lockout has resulted in a snip of aviation news being released on comment relating to the situation.

    An Australian by the name of Paul Winchester said on Friday on BBC News, that he might not be able to attend a function in Holland.He stated that his father's aircraft had been found in Holland and he was attending a function on 11 November relating to this find.

    He further declared that his father was lost in a Stirling.I have done some initial research on this and find that according to Bill Chorley,that the Stiring in question may be the a No 149 Squadron aircraft, lost on an operation to Duseldorf on 25-26 May 1943.However this Stirling is shown as being shotdown over the North Sea with only one casualty recovered off Helioland and ultimately identified.

    From this information,it would appear that his father was F/O Howard Stephen Winchester. RAF. and I would say that Paul Winchester must have since emigrated to Australia.

    I have not been able to pick up any confirmation on the finding of this aircraft but can only think that there may be a possibility of the aircaft being recovered from land since recovered from the sea.

    Interesting to see what develops.Perhaps the Dutch element of the forum might have some news.
     
  2. mhuxt

    mhuxt Junior Member

    I think this was BK710.

    Some info about it here, also a link to a vid of the dives on the wreck. I still have my doubts that the correct crew is listed on the aircraft, given the distance between the wreck and Heligoland.
     
  3. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Thanks for your response.But I cannot see any indicated link on your post.

    However regarding the finding of Sgt Percival's body off Heliogoland,(the only body recovered),can be misleading as to point to the location of the downed aircraft,as the currents and tides off continental Europe tend to carry matter northwards.

    There are cases recorded where Dunkirk casualties were found washed up on the West Frisian Islands (Holland).No doubt casualties off the these islands were washed also into the German Bight.
     
  4. Dennis N

    Dennis N Junior Member

  5. Dennis N

    Dennis N Junior Member

    And here are some pictures: short Stirling bomber BK710 Investigation - YouTube

    Unfortunately, nowadays it's not legal anymore to investigate and/or salvage aircraft by yourself. A salvage of an aircraft costs about 300k - 500k euro and most of that amount of money has to be paid by the municipality where the wreckage is. Most of them they just can't afford this and choose to mark the site as an fieldgrave and leave it where it is. I understand this in a way, because there are a lot of people who don't know what they are dealing with, human remains, explosives, etc. I know four crashsites with one which has possible human remains, bu the municipality just don't have the money to excavate...Sad....
     
  6. mhuxt

    mhuxt Junior Member

    Hi,

    Sorry forgot link, try this one

    Body of World War Two Birmingham bomber found after 66 years - Sunday Mercury?

    My concerns were based on the fact that BK710 was found in the (now) southwest corner of the Ijsselmeer, although it was initially thouht to have been shot down off thie island of Texel.

    I wonder if the currents are sufficient to get out of the Ijsselmeer up to Heligoland in three weeks - off Texel strikes my untrained eye as a better bet. The divers apparently have found the serial number of BK710 at the Marken site, so I wonder whether the ORB has the correct crew on the correct aircraft. In all of that, I put my hand up to being inexpert and talkling out of my ass.
     
  7. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Looking at the map,it would appear to be a difficult passage for a body to be carried from the south west corner of the Ijsselmeer but it is feasable.I would think that the Isselmeer was not bridged by the A10 until after the war.So even if the Isselmeer was an inland sea,there would still be some tidal effect and the time to carry a body into the German Bight would be possible,especially after 3 weeks.

    Had a search for a report of Paul Winchester's function in Holland on November 11,to no avail.
     
  8. Oggie2620

    Oggie2620 Senior Member

    Perhaps hes still in Holland but the Dutch papers are usually very good at putting things like that into the newspapers! Will have to ask my Dutch friends to find out out some more.
    Dee
     
  9. 149Hist

    149Hist Junior Member

    Hi Folks,
    I have been working with Paul Winchester on this for a while and am sorting out the full story for the Mildenhall Register site. I shared the doubts over the aircraft i.d. but have since spoken to the forensic people and they are VERY sure it is the right one. BK710 has had a great deal of research and correspondence devoted to it with some great outcomes. Will post when the full story is public :)
    Alan F
    149 Sqn Historian
     
  10. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Thanks Alan for the update.

    Looking forward to reading the full story of the loss of the aircraft and it crew.

    Per Adua ad Astra.
     
  11. 149Hist

    149Hist Junior Member

  12. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Thanks Alan for posting the Mildenhall Register 149 Squadron.Splendid research all round.

    When I first saw the news item about the discovery of the aircraft,I thought that the aircraft had been found while recovering land from the sea.It looks like as land recovery progresses,the aircraft and its dead might be recovered in the future.

    I think it can be assumed,as indicated, that Sgt Pecival exited the aircraft near to Texel and that it the reason why his body was washed into the German Bight.It could be that the position was on the open sea area and not in the Waddenzee,although the latter might have been capable of providing passage to the German Bight,given the nature of the currents in this area.
     
  13. smdarby

    smdarby Well-Known Member

    First rule of the Forum - always search before posting something "new"!

    Came across an interesting article on the Dutch News website which mentioned Short Stirling BK710, then found this thread from 2011. Unfortunately, it was proven last year that the wreck is not of BK710, but BK716. From the article:

    It was a heart-stopping moment. ā€˜Iā€™d done hundreds of investigations and never been wrong, but the one time I call in an official agency I get a bum steer,ā€™ says Graas. As well as a new search for the relatives of the BK716, he now faced the unenviable task of telling the families of the BK710 crew that the plane they had spent 10 years campaigning to retrieve from the water was, in fact, a different aircraft.

    The operation to recover BK716 begins next week and is expected to last five to six weeks. The full article is well worth a read:

    WWII bomber recovery in the Markermeer lake ends 12 year mystery - DutchNews.nl
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  14. Marco

    Marco Senior Member

    Today it is reported in the Dutch news that human remains have been recovered.
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Senior Member

    It is notable that after almost 6 months, no further announcements on the identification of the remains has been made.
     
    BrianHall1963 likes this.
  16. smdarby

    smdarby Well-Known Member

  17. Marco

    Marco Senior Member

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