Were the platoons on the support company numbered 17-20 in the period 1944-45? Also in which numerical order? I have seen posts where either 17 or 18 were numbered for either the Mortar or carrier platoons, although both the anti-tank platoons and pioneer platoons are not given numbers in the sources I have. The AA platoon seems to have disappeared by this time. regards Keith
My understanding of the numbering of Platoons under the 1943-45 Infantry Battalion organization is; No.1 Signal Pl No.2 Admin Pl No.3 3-in Mortar Pl No.4 Carrier Pl No.5 Anti-tank Pl No.6 Assault Pioneer Pl Nos.7-9 A Coy Nos.10-12 B Coy Nos.13-15 C Coy Nos.16-18 D Coy The modest AA Platoon (four Brens in 1940, becoming twin Brens during 1941) was deleted in the 1943 organization that introduced Support Coy. Gary
I think that the organization that Gary quotes is the earlier version, before they split the HQ Coy into two - Admin Coy and Support (S) Coy. In the newer version I think that the rifle platoons were numbered 1 to 12 (rather than 7-18), but I don't know how the Support and Admin Coys were renumbered. Plenty of references to platoons numbered in the twenties (which is odd, since the total number of platoons shouldn't have increased). I also don't know when the new WE was introduced, but I'm desperately scrambling around looking for some actual evidence.
My list is based on the final version (at least as far as the European theatre went), with 1 and 2 Pls in HQ Coy and 3 to 6 in Support Coy. The differences between the two versions are detailed below. June 1941 war establishment - Bn HQ; HQ Coy; No.1 Signal Pl No.2 AA Pl No.3 3-in Mortar Pl No.4 Carrier Pl No.5 Pioneer Pl No.6 Admin Pl Four Rifles Coys (normally A to D); Nos.7-9 A Coy Nos.10-12 B Coy Nos.13-15 C Coy Nos.16-18 D Coy April 1943 war establishment - Bn HQ; HQ Coy; No.1 Signal Pl No.2 Admin Pl Support Coy; No.3 3-in Mortar Pl No.4 Carrier Pl No.5 Anti-tank Pl No.6 Assault Pioneer Pl Four Rifle Coys (normally A to D); Nos.7-9 A Coy Nos.10-12 B Coy Nos.13-15 C Coy Nos.16-18 D Coy I know some units opted to just number Rifle Pls rather than all Platoons through the Battalion. I mostly associate that with Air Landing Bns though, as they had a lot of changes in format. A standard British Inf Bn (excluding those on the Indian establishment. which I sadly have only the barest info on) never had more than 18 Platoons of all types on its strength, under any of the various WEs published from 1938 to 1946. Purely speculation on my part, but if Platoons were numbered into the twenties it might suggest they were 'carrying over' from another Battalion of the same Regiment? Gary
Thanks Gary, that is very interesting. My area of interest is India/Burma, and that may account for the differences. As you know Indian WEs do not seem to exist anymore, at least, I've never seen any. Most of what I said above is based on the rare references where both platoon and company are mentioned. Nevertheless, it seems to be enough to suggest that infantry battalions in SE Asia were operating on a completely different WE. As an example, here is an extract from ‘Straight On For Tokyo’;
Jitter Party, Your example is very welcome. The system of War Establishments is a complex one, and for the following reasons it is rather difficult to determine in each single case the correct table and issue number that applies. 1. The basic to be looked upon first are the volumes I to IV (sometimes called “Field Force”). Volume II would be the one for a divisional Infantry Battalion. 2. As the war went on, more an more volumes appeared, dealing with the theatres und purposes becoming involved (Middle East, North Africa, South-East Asia, North-West Europe, Light Division and the unprinted “Secrets”… - to name some of them). Following the rule “special before general”, whenever these volumes contain war establishments for the same purpose (e.g.: Infantry Battalion), these special WEs have priority. 3. War Establishments normally come as a sample for all units of a kind, but sometimes, there are special WEs for one or a few special units. These again have priority. E.g.: For the 2nd Division, there is a special WE “Infantry Divisional Signals (South-East Asia Command modification to British W.E. II/219/1)” and “2 Divisional Signals, S.E.A.C.” (XIII/2060/1 & SEA/130/1/44 & SEA/MOD/1 for the first and XIII/2060/2 & 18/BRIT/1945 for the second, becoming effective 21.10.1944 and 13.09.1945 respectively). 4. About 1942, a new system was installed. So called “Delegated Powers” (most Commands abroad) made their own WEs – most but not all - under their own numerical system (unfortunately they seemed to be rather free and chose different ones, examples for 2nd Divisional Signals given above), which had to be approved by the War Office, where they got a “normal” (War Office) table number in addition. 5. So we have WO-WE-numbers und DP-WE-numbers. There is no known single source “translating” them or bringing them together, only thousands of snippets in WEs and Army Council Instructions (A.C.Is.). 6. Again unfortunately, this was the rule, but there were exceptions having a DP-WE-number and no WO-WE-number. These are probably not preserved. Only traces could be found. 7. Due to the subsidiarity one can only judge with certainty if one knows the complete systems. Having said all this, to be sure one has in doubt to go all the way described backward. As the sources are not preserved completely, one can never be sure. Or: You don’t need missing Indian Establishments to remain in doubt. In the preserved sources, I found 45 entries for “Infantry Battalion”, none for the relevant volume XIII, none for 2nd Division. Volume XI for the Indian Command contains 3 entries, two for the Chindits and one for Ceylon Light Infantry. One entry in volume VIII (not printed, the Secrets) for “Increment “C” for two detached Infantry Battalions”. Volume XV was established for “units and headquarters of a Light Division” (and much more). I read that units earmarked for Far East were under this volume, but I don’t know much about it, not even if it was ever applied to any unit. Its “own” Infantry Battalion, XV/706/1 – “An Infantry Battalion in a Light Division”, theoretically effective 04.08.1944 – 01.02.1949, but with a War Office caveat, was organized as follows and doesn’t fit either: Battalion Headquarters Headquarter Company - Headquarters - Signal Platoon - Administrative Platoon Support Company - Headquarters - 3-inch Mortar Platoon - Assault Pioneer Platoon 4 Rifle Companies each - Headquarters - 4 Platoons. Aixman
This is the sum of info I've found on Indian Army WEs proper; Indian war establishment That comes to 19 Platoons I think. If they made some adjustments locally to allow for say the Rifle Pls to keep their previous numbers, they may have used higher series numbers for the new types of platoons in HQ Coy. And also an outline of changes to Indian Divisions, detailed in the notes of the 'Monthly Meeting of Dominion Representatives' held in August 1943; Department of National Defence : subject files,... - Image 23 - Héritage (canadiana.ca) Scroll to Image 58 to get a more easily readable version! Gary
