Tank losses of the 24th Lancers in Normandy – June and July 1944

I was going through some old notes on some of the IWM audio I've listened to and found another mention of a couple of lost 24th L tanks between the 8th-10th June in here: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80019675

(Warning (Rm) some of the account is a bit graphic)

Fewster, Robert Thomas 'Paddy (IWM interview) - (Fewster. Gunner/Mechanic aka co-Driver in A Squadron - info. from SDP).

REEL 2 Continues: prior recollection of receiving field punishment for going absent without leave from 2nd East Riding Yeomanry; preparations for D-Day in holding camp. Aspects of operations as with 24 Lancers in Normandy, 6/6/1944-12/6/1944: Channel crossing; his beach landing on Gold Beach, D-Day, 6/6/1944; panzerfaust hit on his tank, 12/6/1944. Hosptialisation in GB, 1944.

Interesting but as he says it was all quite confused, "too much was happening" and he says he couldn't see much from inside the tank and didn't know much about what was occurring elsewhere, but he mentions a certain "Taylor" and "Captain Poole" at about 12 mins in, having their heads out of their tanks and being hit by snipers, and many tank commanders being aware of this and of their vulnerability there, with many opting to go locked down.

He seems to mean the lance sergeant G.A.Taylor in "A" squadron (with thanks to SDP - for helping me out!), KIA. 8/6/1944 -
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2341473/TAYLOR,%20GEORGE%20ALFRED

Rather than the "Spud" Taylor in "C" squadron, who my gd knew, who was wounded in the arm.

On the 12th, Robert Fewster says he got "blown up" by a "bazooka", but couldn't quite remember exactly where.

He also mentions another 24th L tank being blown up nearby and someone called Jock having his "arm shot up" being badly hurt - tho. at one point he says something like "it's in the book" so I assume he means NHL.

There's still a few more audios I have to go through anew or again and something interesting always seems to come up there so it is well worth it, to see what you can find out.

All the best,

Rm.

 

In a similar way, there is an IWM audio here (albeit not currently available online!): http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80015847

Of an interview with Bertram Garai, including an account there of the knocking out of his 24th L "C" squadron Firefly tank:

With the following description: "selection for 24th Lancers; punishment of fellow cadet, Richard Leather; celebrations in London after passing out from Sandhurst; passing out parade. Recollections of period as officer with 5 Troop, C Squadron 24th Lancers in GB, 1943-1944: initial posting to 107th Regt, Royal Armoured Corps at Leyburn, 1/1943; an example of army discipline; reasons for delay in joining 24th Lancers; joining unit at Chippenham Park near Newmarket; reception on joining unit. REEL 4 Continues: unit officers; introduction to his troop; question of treating one's tank as horse; battle run at Kirkcudbright, 1943; training on Yorkshire Wolds based on Bridlington; injury to ankle during commando course at Hornsea; re-equipping with Sherman tanks from US; method of firing on target; selecting of 'stick man'; compassionate leave on loss of brother serving in RAF; co-ordination; co-ordination with 8th Bn Rifle Bde; arrival of new equipment prior to D-Day in Winchester area; embarkation at Southampton, 6/1944. Recollections of operations as troop commander with 5 Troop, C Squadron 24th Lancers in Normandy. 6/1944: character of Channel crossing; use of Rhinos to disembark tanks; landing on beaches, 7/6/1944. REEL 5 Continues: waterproofing of tanks; situation on beach; advance inland to Le Hamel; role of military police; Richard Leather's winning of Military Cross; advance to Creuilly; reaction to sight of dead British troops; German use of snipers; advance to Point 103 above Tilly-sur-Seulles; use of Sherman Firefly; results of unit's initial contact with German armour during advance to St Pierre; wounding during knocking out of his tank by German tank. Memories of evacuation to and hospitalisation in GB, 6/1944-8/1944. Recollections of operations as officer with 1 Troop, A Sqdn 23 Hussars, 11th Armoured Div in North West Europe, 8/1944-9/1944: fate of 24 Lancers during his absence. "

Garai was the Tank commander and troop commander of the 1st Tank of the 5th (Firefly) troop of the "C" squadron of the 24th L and this is reported to have occurred on the 9th June 1944.

 

Hi All
I'm the Grand daughter of George 'Spud' Taylor. Only found the WW2Talk.com forums recently and been reading up on the blogs regarding the 24L's and listening to some of the audios.(this is my first blog - ever!) I had been lucky enough to make contact with Steve (SDP) previously when I was researching my Grandfathers history. So Hi, Steve - hope you are well. Is Tony Hughes still alive? Often wonder about him. Fascinating gentleman.
My Mum and I are off in a few weeks with a Battlefields Tour to Normandy and will be going to the Bocage area - I'm very keen to see where George was when he was killed to understand the terrain and get a better insight to what went on. I'll have to refresh my memory and re read NHL before I go .

 

Annie
Please PM me with your email address and I'll email you a copy of my 24th Lancers 'battlefields tour'.

Tony still OK to best of my knowledge. Been some time since I spoke to him.

Edit: I've located our emails from 2012. My email address is still the same if you need more information etc.

 

Doh! Was doing a search and stumbled on this... (actually an "alternate/fictional history - see below)
Disaster at D-Day: The Germans Defeat the Allies, June 1944
By Peter Tsouras ....

Where there seems to be a brief mention of some more tank losses of the 24th L (presumably the British 24th L and not the Polish 24th's judging by the dates and the ref. there also to the 13/18 Hussars):

Disaster at D-Day

Which mentions "Lieutenant Herbert Ronson of the Lancers" and "The Lancers and Hussars lost five tanks trying to force the river"

Albeit, I can't at the mo. find an obvious ref. to a Lieutenant Herbert H. Ronson in the 24th Lancers (NHL or Wardiary, nominal roll at disbandment etc): 24th Lancers Regimental Nominal Roll and Postings August 1944

And the ref. it gives (at the back of the book) is also a bit intriguing as it says there: "Herbert H. Ronson, A Subaltern With the Hussars (London, Collins, 1948) p149

Disaster at D-Day

Which I suppose, even going so far as to put fictional refs to no-existent books in the back, might be partly where the problem lies, in "alternate histories" mixing up and fiddling with the facts...

Herbert H. Ronson, A Subaltern With the Hussars - Google Search

Was rather confusing, at the first moment, anyhow

Then it all began to make a bit more sense when I started to realise that it was seemingly fiction / alternative history.... trying to credit the Germans with non-existent victories in Normandy... weird

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Disaster-D-Day-Germans-Defeat-Allies/dp/1848327234



"It is June 1944. The Allied armies are poised for the full-scale invasion of Fortress Europe. Across the Channel, the vaunted Wehrmacht lies waiting for the signs of invasion, ready for the final battle. What happens next is well-known to any student of modern history. The outcome could easily have been very different, as Peter Tsouras shows in this masterful and devastating account in which plans, missions and landings go horribly wrong. Tsouras firmly bases his narrative on facts but introduces minor adjustments at the opening of the campaign-the repositioning of a unit, bad weather and misjudged orders-and examines their effect as they gather momentum and impact on all subsequent events. Without deviating from the genuine possibilities of the situation, he presents a scenario that keeps the reader guessing and changes the course of history."

Rm.

 

"The morning came and we saw some planes flying in from the sea. Suddenly someone started firing at them from between us and the sea. Some of the enemy were still around and we must have bypassed them the previous evening. Shortly afterwards three of our tanks went by with infantry aboard and later we heard the noise of the 75's and chatter of Brownings and the noise of the enemy's mortars in reply. Shortly afterwards the tanks came by again with the troops giving the thumbs up. The 24th Lancers were in business!!! That is what happened for the first couple of days, mopping up and disposing of snipers who were causing much damage and casualties to the soft skinned vehicles. These snipers were very prone to hide in church towers and it became the habit to plaster any church tower as you approached. We were used to seeing corpses both German and ours. Mr Fuller once complained to me that the Germans always fell face down, while ours fell face up! The regiment moved on, about 60 Shermans and some smaller Honeys. I would like to say that this first action of ours was a success, but it turned out to be a bit of a fiasco. At first we were fired at from some trees, to which we replied vigorously, then things quietened down. About a mile ahead the was a river bridge, one of the Honeys started to cross but was hit by an AP and stopped, blocking the bridge. I saw our troop sergeant walk past, I couldn't understand and I heard from my tank commander that the sergeants tank had been hit. I asked what had happened to the rest of the crew and heard that Mr Fuller's crew were helping. Later we heard the story. The sergeant's tank was hit, killing Hearn the co-driver, the driver was badly burnt and died later. The gunner was blinded and the Wireless Operator was in shock - he was only twenty years old."

Re. Hearn the co-driver

I think this is the one ref'd.....

Re.... Hearnah...

Casualty Details

Trooper
Service No: 14409041
Date of Death: 08/06/1944
Age: 35
Regiment/Service:
Royal Armoured Corps
24th Lancers
Panel Reference: Panel 8, Column 2.
Memorial: BAYEUX MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of Percival J. and Blanche Hearnah; husband of Phyllis Ada Ann Hearnah, of Thornton Heath, Surrey.

There was also this post back in 2012...

24th Lancers

 

Hobby

Has the text: "A quick bit of research and I find the 50th Division was supported by the 8th Armoured Brigade. I decided to select a Troop from the 24th Lancers armed with Shermans to support them. The Sherman Firefly is a Vc, and a quick look at Peter Brown’s excellent article on the British 21st Army Group’s tanks confirms the other tanks are Sherman IIIs."



None Had Lances - The Story of the 24th Lancers - has on p61 "There was much debate as to how best to use these new weapons (the 17-pdrs), one per troop with two 75mm tanks or group three 17-pdrs together in one group. We adopted the latter option." - so the 24th Lancer 1-5 numbered troops were typically three 75mm's or three 17-pdrs together in one group - i.e. not four tanks per 24th L troop and not "mixed" as in the picture above.

BUT: there is an actual ref. in "Structure of an Armoured Regiment" on p236 of NHL where it specifically says for just HQ troop in presumably each squadron (A,B&C) - 3 Shermans 75mm and 1 Sherman 17-pdr. Then it goes on to say - for 1st Troop, 2nd Troop etc, four troops with Sherman 75mm, and one troop with Sherman 17-pdr. So there is a difference there for just the HQ Troops in presumably each squadron of the 24th L's.

Additionally I'd not seen a table such as this quoted one i.e. a "list of the tanks used by the British 21st Army Group in North West Europe 1944" before: https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=399

With: 8th Armoured Brigade



- Shermans, June 1944 =

- 76 - II DD (With DD equipped 8AB squadrons in 4/7RDG and SRY not having fireflies - 24th L had no DDs.)
- 95 - III (With more of these (perhaps roughly 3/5ths?) with the 24th L - their not having the DD's in their squadrons)
- 8 - III OP
- 9 - III ARV
- 22 - Vc - (Perhaps 5 of these each in the 4/7RDG and SRY's - one non DD equipped sqd.)
(And I think 12 were presumably 24th L - i.e. 4 in each squadron, 1 in each HQ Troop and 3 together in "one group")
- 2 - V ARV

- Stuarts, June 1944 =

- 33 - III (Therefore perhaps with around 11 per 8AB regiment presumably?)

Miscellaneous Tanks, June 1944 =

- 3 - Valentine B/L
- 20 - Crusader AA

Ps. (A note back to original post #1 in this thread) The War dairy for the 24th L for example for the month of June 1944 says:

The Regiment suffered the following casualties during the month of June.

Officers. 4 Killed 23 Wounded

O.R’s. 20 Killed 95 Wounded 4 Missing believed killed.

The Regiment lost 28 Tanks destroyed and 10 damaged.

The Regiment inflicted the following casualties in vehicles on the enemy during the same period.

Tanks destroyed 19
A/Tk guns 2
SP guns 3
½ Tracked vehicles 5
Armoured cars 5

 

....and a quick check of the Nominal Roll Squadron section confirms for each of Squadrons A, B and C, 4 tanks in HQ Troop plus 3 tanks in each of Troops 1-5 with one of those Troops comprising 3 Fireflys.

 

For the HQ Troop of "C" Sqd of the 24th L - I think the four Tank commanders at around D-Day were:

Major Cowley, Captain Arbuthnot, Captain Cox and Cpl Mills

I suppose that the one Firefly of HQ Troop of the 24th L's "C" Sqd could have been, quite likely, commanded by Cpl Mills.

I noticed on the Nominal roll (at disbandment of the 24th L) that a "6200230" Lance/Sergeant Mills A.F.C. went from the 24th L into the 1.RTks. This could, perhaps, be "him".

Unfortunately I'm not aware yet if this was with or without the old firefly of HQ troop of the 24th L's "C" Sqd ;-)

The "2 complete troops" of 24th L's that went from the 24th L into the SRY - "took their tanks" - but I don't think that this was what usually happened.

I imagine though as the Germans tended to focus and/or pick out Fireflies - HQ troop of "C" Sqd's original Firefly might have been previously knocked out, although the 24th L did not appear to have difficulty in securing replacements - even after the initial disruptions of the "Great Storm" - and so would have had roughly a full complement of tanks (both original and replacements) at around the time of the Regiment's disbandment at the start of August 1944.

 

Hello Rm/Steve et al.,

It's been awhile since I contributed to the 24L discussions but just received notification of some new threads.

With regards to references that might be of interest as well as casualty information, I finally got hold of a second-hand copy of "Before I Go" by Rev. Mark Green, the Chaplain with 24L and others. In fact the copy I have was signed by Rev. Green. (ISBN 1-9-04499-05-8)

The first half of this small book is dedicated to the events in Normandy, starting Monday, June 5th, 1944 through to July 31, 2017.
If anyone wants some details, they can e-mail me.

While the book has small snippets of the actions of the 24L, it gives a very good feeling on the day to day life in Normandy during this time, as well as Rev. Green's internal thoughts of his roll and the church in these most difficult times. A sombering but highly recommended read.

Those mentioned in this book include in his diary:

Douglas Aitken (24L Medical Officer)
Alick Poole (mentioned as first officer casualty)
Colonel Arnold (Commanding Officer of the ADS)
Colonel 'Wac' Anderson
Sgt-Major Clayton
Brigadier Cracroft
Hedleigh Davies (Chaplain to the 4th/7th RDG regimental Aid post)
Geoffrey Mitchell (subaltern casualty - 4th/7th RDG)
Donald Drake (Subaltern - 24th L and recipient of the MC)
Ted Webb (Officer casualty - "sometime in the evening", Sunday, June 11th.
[There's no mention of the dead of my grandfather Sgt Fred Fielder; who also died in the evening that day too. A letter to my grandmother from his commanding officer indicated he had already had participated in one lengthy engagement in the morning.]
Lieut. Kenneth Wareham
Pip (acting Squadron Leader - June 27th)
'Ginger' Smith ('co-driver of one of our tanks')

Any errors or omissions are entirely mine!

David Fielder (grandfather - Frederick William James ("Fred(dy)) Fielder)

 

Hi David - any mention in there or a reproduction of the p87 "None Had Lances" - picture of the Rev with the C sqd group on Point 103? It is a picture as credited as coming from Bill Jackson - (on IV of NHL) one of the Troopers in that group, he's the one down on one knee just in front of the Rev. there. I think he's on this pic too...

Ben_tent_2_chums by Ramiles posted Aug 3, 2017 at 11:01 PM

Though I notice Bill / William Jackson isn't one of those names in the book you already ref.

Another 24th L book is "A Dalesman's War" - I have seen some good reviews for that. But not got round to getting it yet.



BTW - Did you start a thread re. your granddad? David. Or will you? I don't recall if you had any more specific questions etc? Did you get his Tracer card from Bov?

 

Hello Rob,

I asked a few questions about my grandfather (FWJ Fielder) but I haven't obtained any other information other than a couple of photographs that were associated with him (which I believe I've posted).

I've got both his Tracer card as well as the Graves Registration Form and Graves Concentration Report Form.
The latter provides the map coordinates where he was buried during battle and date of reburial at Bayeux Commonwealth Cemetery in Feb 1945.

For the photograph above, there's no picture in 'Before I go" related to Point 103 and "C" squadron, however there is 1-2 paragraphs mentioning "C" squadron - but very light on details.

I've got a copy of A Daleman's War (Stan Haygarth). I'm note sure if some of the desciriptions came from NHL (as my father has my copy) or if they were from Stan's/family memories - but there's some good information within - mostly "C" squadron.

David

 

Facebook: Fontenay - Rauray, Autopsie d'une bataille

"Sherman "Blimey Bill" of the B Squadron of the 24th Lancers destroyed in the Park." (of Boislonde)

 

What a pity we can't quite make out the T number.
A couple of points:
1. Just noticed the rifle propped up against the front drive sprocket location
2. The 'transit comb' is still present in front of the Drivers position - this held a cable that led back to the handbrake so that the tank could be controlled while still in its transit packing.

 

There a ref. here... (nb. though no. media currently available to view associated with that ref. on line)

IWM - Collection: BROSTER LESLIE HERBERT

Object description
Black and white prints taken in Northwest Europe relating to Herbert Broster's service in the British Army during 1945. Subjects covered include knocked out Sherman tanks including one named BLIMEY BILL, damaged buildings in the Avranches, Arnhem, Cristot, Cagny and Cologne areas as well as war graves and blown bridges. The British cemetery at Hottot Les Bagues is featured as are individual roadside graves where troops were burried as they fell. There is also one photograph of a sign displaying British Army humour of the period which reads 'Luxurious Flats (Mud) H&C (Mostly C), Boating Swimming and Shooting (Both ways) and Bosch Hunting in the woods...'

For which I suppose there is a relatively good chance it's the same tank, even if it might not be the same photo.

 

From the 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards - there a reference to another 24th Lancer tank (Map ref.#10) "hit" here on 26th June 1944
(and see also: Tank losses of the 24th Lancers in Normandy – June and July 1944 re. that date too.) - there's a ref. in "None Had Lances" p160-161 - that this was the 17-pdr (Firefly) tank of Cpl Gerard Davey of the HQ Troop of "A" Squadron 24th Lancers.

Nb. It was not completely knocked out, but was damaged. The damaged tank was hit with HE rather than AP and could no longer traverse its turret, but was able to withdraw for repairs.



Ref. p83 - https://www.amazon.com/First-Last-Regimental-Narratives-Unofficial/dp/B000P1MYEE

"The first and the last : the story of the 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards, 1939-1945 - Further information compiled from the regimental war diary, squadron diaries, personal narratives, and the unofficial "Actions of the 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards in France" by Major J.D.P. Stirling, illustrated with maps drawn by Trooper S. Oxley."

 

Hello I am the nephew of Trooper Eric Newnham of C Squadron 24th Lancers

Hello My name is Jim Newnham and I am the nephew of Trooper Eric Newnham of C Squadron 24th Lancers who we believed was killed in action on the 10th June 1944 in the battle for St. Pierre. He was in the same tank as Cyril Brindley (listed above) who was killed that same night, From communications that my grandfather received it was said that his Sherman was hit by an anti tank round and although he managed to bale out he was then hit in the legs by machine gun fire. He was evacuated by stretcher bearers from the DLI but died from his wounds later that night. In the listing above for the 11th June it quotes "Eric hit on way in. Broken leg." Could this be uncle Eric or is this another Lancer with the same first name? Also apart from Cyril is it possible to find out who the rest of his tank crew were?

 

Hi Jim,

The "Eric hit on way in. Broken leg." was Sergeant Eric C. Hanson, army number 7927969.



Re. Eric Newnham...



There is this from "None Had Lances"...



For the 9th-10th June 1944...

Leonard Attwood - Driver/Operator- C

Cyril Brindley - Gunner/Mechanic - C

Henry Compton - Gunner/Mechanic - C

Eric Newnham - Gunner/Operator - C

Jack Moore - Gunner/Mechanic - HQ

 

Thank you for the clarification of the two Eric's and for the other information. I have the book None had lances. Can you confirm that Gunner/Operator is the gun loader or is it a wireless operator? Do you know if all the others killed that night were in the same tank as Eric (I know Cyril Brindley was).

 

Hi Jim,

I'll pm what info I have. Although more always seems to come to light and even some new information can be contradictory and more confusing.

From the DLI side there is this...

8th Battalion Durham Light Infantry Report, 1944 June

Some other links...

24th Lancers - "C" Squadron

Re. Trooper Cyril Brindley - My Grandfather in 'C' Squadron 24th Lancers 1944

The Battles for Point 103 and St. Pierre (8th–18th June 1944)

The Battle for Tilly-sur-Seulles - Normandy - June 1944