The Admin Box

Discussion in 'Burma & India' started by Thomas McCall, Feb 8, 2005.

  1. Thomas McCall

    Thomas McCall Senior Member

    I've just finished reading the chapter about the 'admin box' in Louis Allen's book Burma the longest war 1941-45 and I get the impression that not many men of the 5th and 7th Divisions were defending the box from the Japanese.

    I was wondering what were the other troops outside the 'box' doing whilst the troops inside were under seige. Did they try and relieve the forces inside or did they stay put?

    Thanks :)
     
  2. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I can't answer because I don't know that much about this "forgotten war", but lately I have become more interested. What are your comments about this book? Worth reading?
     
  3. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    I have "The Longest War." If it's about the Burma campaign, it seems to be in the book. It even discusses Japanese attempts to subvert Burma before the war through the independence leagues. I haven't finished it, though.
     
  4. Compo

    Compo Member

    I cannot answer either because my only knowledge of the events is the same book, which you already know, but I can comment that I found the book excellent and full of detail such as delights us historians, units, events, maps, photos, commanders and their characters. These are not always flattering and Allen is quite candid, especially about the American Gen. Stillwell who, as an extreme Anglophobe, seems to have been badly miscaste to coordinate tricky Chinese with other Allied forces.
    If you have little knowledge of this "forgotten war" this book will be all you hope for.
    Regds
     
  5. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Compo@Feb 9 2005, 10:58 AM
    I cannot answer either because my only knowledge of the events is the same book, which you already know, but I can comment that I found the book excellent and full of detail such as delights us historians, units, events, maps, photos, commanders and their characters. These are not always flattering and Allen is quite candid, especially about the American Gen. Stillwell who, as an extreme Anglophobe, seems to have been badly miscaste to coordinate tricky Chinese with other Allied forces.
    If you have little knowledge of this "forgotten war" this book will be all you hope for.
    Regds
    [post=31345]Quoted post[/post]
    The big reason Stilwell was sent to China was that he had been there before as a liaison and a regimental commander, building bridges (both human and steel) and spoke several Chinese languages. He knew the terrain and the people. Given his intense Anglophobia and lack of diplomatic skills, I'm not sure where else he could have served...given also the nature of that coalition war. It's a pity, because he was a highly skilled general and front-line leader. He was practically blind, and suffering already the cancer that would kill him, but he still went on route marches that would and did exhaust men 40 years his junior.
     
  6. Thomas McCall

    Thomas McCall Senior Member

    Agree with what everybody else says it's an exellent book so far. I've now reached the opening of the Imphal and Kohima battles.

    Sadly because of revision and re-reading other books for my exams I have to give up the 'forgotten war' for now. :(
     
  7. jonwilly

    jonwilly Junior Member

    My Father now deceased, used to speak about The Admin Box to me, when I was a kid and just to young to understand.
    The only time I asked him what Regt where you in he said 1st Medium Regt RA.
    I know he joined in 36 and got the free years until 45 care of Herr Hitler.
    The other place he mention was the Kabaw Valley where he contracted a sever case of Malaria, which was over the years to eat away his kidneys until he passed away in 92 age 77.
    Does anyone know if he would have been with 1st Med during his time in Burma ?
    He also mentioned that 'They' had been equipped with 60 pounders and then 5.5 inch in Burma.
    john
     
  8. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    I've just finished reading the chapter about the 'admin box' in Louis Allen's book Burma the longest war 1941-45 and I get the impression that not many men of the 5th and 7th Divisions were defending the box from the Japanese.

    Yes, very small number of units defended Admin Box: three companies of 2nd West Yorkshires, the two squadrons of the 25th Dragoons, and two batteries of 24 Indian Mountain Regiment and some administration troops.


    You can find more about this battle here:

    Anthony Brett-James. Ball of Fire. Fifth Indian Division in the Second World War. 1951. Chapters 21-22.

    (this is just a chapter about Admin Box but you have there complete book "Ball of Fire" about 5th Indian Division in WW" : Anthony Brett-James. Ball of Fire. Fifth Indian Division in the Second World War. 1951. Contents. Foreword. Acknowledgments.)

    And here is map of battle:
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    If I´m not mistaken, since the Admin Box´s siege was the result of one of several Japanese thrusts deep into the rear of the Commonwealth forces, the defenders were just a bunch of support troops and a couple of outfits tagged as reserves, but nothing more.

    Meanwhile, the relief efforts couldn´t exactly involve a lot of troops, because most of the available were trying to stop the Nipponese at the "front", in what turned out the be sort of a turning point in the battle for Burma; for the first time, even with heavier losses than theirs, Japanese jungle tactics had been stopped, and to some extent defeated.

    By the way, this battle represented the first major engagement in which units from the second Indian National Army - INA - were involved.
     
  10. Pete Keane

    Pete Keane Senior Member

    The fight for the admin box, and the inability of the troops on the frontline to assist, is a good example of how the japanese, and later the British, used the 'hook' in jungle warfare.

    The japanese would put on and maintain pressure on the enemy front line, at the same time they would outflank the enemy using the jungle for cover, and would then appear in the rear of the enemy frontlines - often they would construct a large roadblock which proved impregnable to assault. This meant they got in amongst the 2nd line or admin troops, the frontline were unable to turn and fight as they were engaged by the japanese at the front.

    Little blame could be attached to units hard-pressed elsewhere for not coming to help.

    The japanese tactics were used by Slim later in the campaign, with the added bonus of air supply.

    In relation to Stilwell, Louis Allens superb book (if not the best then surely the most readable) does highlight Stilwells personality, yet Slim, in his autobiography 'Retreat into Victory' (another excellent read), praises Stilwell for his work in almost impossible circumstances.

    Regards

    Pete
     
  11. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    The "Hook" became standard practice later on, not only during WW2, but in Korea; just ask the 2nd Infantry at Kunu-ri about its effectiveness.

    Now, about the massacre at the field hospital, could it have been prevented?
     
  12. jonwilly

    jonwilly Junior Member

    The 'Hook' was another example of a standard jap tactic they they never changed.
    It was of exceptional value during the first year of the war when the Brit formations where totally Wheel bound.
    The Brit could not operate off the road, his supply system was 100% by vehicle.
    It took a year or so for formations to be equipped and trained in the use of Pack Mules and for the British Soldier to learn that 'The Jungle was Nutral' in the words of Spencer Chapman.
    Tommy learned and changed his tactics, jap never learned or modified his conduct.
    john
     
  13. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Guess you´re right; it was standard procedure right from the beginning.

    The disaster in Malaya is proof of that, as time after time the defenders got outflanked, enveloped and routed while trying to retreat over the one exit left - a blocked road -, and the same happened during the withdrawal into Bataan.
     
  14. jonwilly

    jonwilly Junior Member

    I am now reading
    'Percival and the Tragedy of Singapore' by Sir John Smyth VC. MC.
    Lack of Government spending on what was required is considered the main reason for the Fall of Maylaya and Singapore.
    Percival was the 'Fall Guy'
    john
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I was wondering what were the other troops outside the 'box' doing whilst the troops inside were under seige. Did they try and relieve the forces inside or did they stay put?

    26th Indian Division was sent to relieve 7th Ind div I believe.

    By the way, this battle represented the first major engagement in which units from the second Indian National Army - INA - were involved.


    Mention made of Jiffs in 1 Wilts War Diary for 18-4-1944 [a few months later than the action being discussed I know.]

    Met Jiffs & Japs at 452419. Jiffs wearing English BD and helmets . Patrol engaged kiling one enemy.
     
  16. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    I was wondering what were the other troops outside the 'box' doing whilst the troops inside were under seige. Did they try and relieve the forces inside or did they stay put?

    Thanks :)

    1st Camerons, part of 2nd Div, on 14th April 1944 with a successful attack on the Japanese position at Zubza, the road was opened for the relief of Kohima. In the critical operations to halt the Japanese advance, the 1st Camerons successfully penetrated the Jap lines and, having achieved surprise, captured the Naga village on "point 5120", a hill of particular tactical importance. The battalion then took Aradura Spur, a bastion of the Japanese defences. With Kohima recaptured, the 1st Camerons advanced south, attacking the Japanese at Viswema, until by June 22nd, 1944, the road from Kohima to Imphal was reopened. The battle for Kohima cost 1st Camerons 283 casualties.
     
  17. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I used to know a RAMC veteran who was in the Admin Box, sadly last time I tried to phone him his wife said he'd had alzheimer's.
    Sad that , he'd been at Dunkirk too.
    Great chap, my old friend Jim West.
     
  18. zeezee

    zeezee Member

    Yes, very small number of units defended Admin Box: three companies of 2nd West Yorkshires, the two squadrons of the 25th Dragoons, and two batteries of 24 Indian Mountain Regiment and some administration troops.


    You can find more about this battle here:

    Anthony Brett-James. Ball of Fire. Fifth Indian Division in the Second World War. 1951. Chapters 21-22.

    (this is just a chapter about Admin Box but you have there complete book "Ball of Fire" about 5th Indian Division in WW" : Anthony Brett-James. Ball of Fire. Fifth Indian Division in the Second World War. 1951. Contents. Foreword. Acknowledgments.)

    And here is map of battle:


    Hello! sol, these docs are great! My grandfather was one of the doctor (RAMC) casualties at the dressing station in the Admin Box. I didn't realize that 3 doctors survived. I would be interested in talking with next of kin (or very ancient doctors too - although sadly i imagine most of them are gone) of people who were there. I am interested in connecting with other families of the casualties or survivors - specifically of the field hospital/dressing station. Would also be interested in any docs pertaining to the events. We have some letters, newspaper articles, photos. any lead to more info is appreciated!
     
  19. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Hello! sol, these docs are great! My grandfather was one of the doctor (RAMC) casualties at the dressing station in the Admin Box. I didn't realize that 3 doctors survived. I would be interested in talking with next of kin (or very ancient doctors too - although sadly i imagine most of them are gone) of people who were there. I am interested in connecting with other families of the casualties or survivors - specifically of the field hospital/dressing station. Would also be interested in any docs pertaining to the events. We have some letters, newspaper articles, photos. any lead to more info is appreciated!

    Little more details (on 5 pages) about attack on the M.D.S. Hill you can find in book "Spearhead General" by Henry Maule.
     
  20. zeezee

    zeezee Member

    Thanks sol! will check it out. My local library has it in the reference stacks.
    Is it often referred to as the M.D.S Hill? and what do the initials mean?
     

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