The Austin K5 again - PREPARING for D-Day!

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by phylo_roadking, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    All - between myself, Tom O'Brien and some members at HMVF, we've managed to produce a VERY good timeline for the legendary problems the Austin K5 "Screamer" 4x4 suffered in 21st Army Group hands beginning in September 1944...until its resolution with new-specification piston rings in December.

    The BRIEF version is that the famous problems the K5 came to suffer....very accelerated piston ring wear, leading to burnt and contaminated oil, very worn valve guides and bent/damaged valves, and heavy carbon/burnt oil desposits in the combustion chamber...ALL arose from a combination of the following;

    1/ a new piston fitted to the K5s prepared for "wading" in May '44; thse had increased clearance for the piston skirt because (possibly) of an earlier overheating issue - which led to the pistons "rocking" and the rings wearing far too fast - in turn because...

    2/ Austins used old-spec rectangular-edged piston rings on these new pistons, and they gave marginal sealing; certainly not enough to prevent accelerated wear and oil contamination, or cope with the pistons rocking;

    3/ There was very fast valve guide wear, leading to BOTH oil in the combustion chamber and badly damaged valves - both because of the contaminted, heavily graphited oil AND becauseof local overheating - the latter possibly because of...

    4/ The changeover to 80 octane "MT 80 Pool" iin service just before D-Day....which was KNOWN to cause local overheating and hotpsots in some older engines, particularly ones designed to run on a lower octane rating fuel - and finally...

    5/ that new, increased-clearance piston fitted in May? It very possibly led to problems with the new, low viscosity "HD30" high-dtergent oil grade that had come into common use , along with other HD grades, in late 1942; this oil had prviously given no problems - but the new pistons and fast wearing rings meant that the oil film wasn't being scraped off the cylinder walls properly - leading to oil drag, increased wear in turn AND burnt oil due ti blow-by on the worn rings.

    The whole problem - after various attempts to find other cures - was put right at the start of December by the fitment of a new specification of piston ring that would fit in the existing, increased-clearance pistons; these rings, in a much harder grade of cast iron alloy that was a patented product of Wellworthy's, the piston ring specialists....had a tapered edge for better support of the "rocking" piston and of course wouldn't wear anything like as fast. Both the compression rings AND the oil scraper ring was revised - and because of the taper they were "one-sided" they could only be fitted one way up - and THAT side was marked...."HD30"!!!

    And thus the famous problem was resolved - or at least the Director of Mechanical Engineering at the War Office thought so! Obviously...any overheating due to the MT 80 could be coped with once all the piston ring wear and dirty/burnt oil issues were removed from the equation.

    BUT HERE'S THE PROBLEM...

    In May, 1,400 K5s were "recalled" and fitted with those new pistons at Austins; these lorries had ALREADY been waterproofed and issued to assault companies....and REME had to waterproof them AGAIN! So this particular activity - the fitting of the new pistons LESS THAN A MONTH BEFORE OVERLORD - must have been a rapid reaction to some OTHER problem!!!

    And given that it was "solved" by increasing the piston skirt clearance to allow for more thermal expansion - this problem must ALSO have been something to do with overheating...


    So my question is very simple - is anyone aware of, or ever heard of, problems with the Austin K5 4x4 BEFORE D-Day?
     
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  2. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Have you come across this?

    A large number of new vehicles had been placed in store in 1943. These were earmarked for D Day and many of them had been waterproofed in anticipation of the landings. In fact the waterproofing was found to have deteriorated and had to be replaced. A large number of these new vehicles were Austin K5 3ton 4 X 4 lorries. The Landing Tables show that most of the divisions 3ton GS vehicles were to be of this type but diaries show that some were replaced by other types before D day. A further adverse effect of storage was the fact that the MT80 petrol caused corrosion when engines had been run on it and then not used for some time.

    I am afraid I am not good at references. I always relied on my memory.

    Mike
     
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  3. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Hi Mike...

    ....thanks for that! In the meantime I've also been told by Richard Farrant on HMVF that the increased-clearance pistons weren't to stop problems with the pistons....it was to stop seizures when the cylinder block suddenly shrank when it hit seawater when wading!!!

    Engines would be run up to temperature BEFORE htting the weatwer, so their internals would be up at operating temperature too....but the cylinder block would suddenly cool while the pistons were still hot and expanded to normal working tolerances!

    So put this to your above issues....and the situation PRE-D-Day seems to have been every bit as bad as AFTER!

    Just as an aside - MT 80 causing corrosion is one I hadn't come across before...among its MANY issues, of course!...but the K5's engine had a cast iron block with iron liners...and cast iron pistons...and naturally - cast iron alloy rings!
     
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  4. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Hi Trux

    Do you have any more information on the waterproofing process?

    I know driving through standing water is tough on wheel bearing grease. Still is today on four wheel drive trucks around here.
     
  5. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Dave,

    There is some technical information in the REME Official History. I will look it out but I am a bit busy today.

    Mike
     
  6. kingdom

    kingdom Junior Member

    This being my first post on this forum, I hesitate to join this discussion as I have no mechanical knowledge, so this may (or may not) be of help.
    Immediately after the War, the War office Directorates each wrote up an account of the experience gained during the War. These histories, generally known as ‘War Office Monographs’ were classified when published but are now available in the National Archives.
    The volume “Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, Vol 2 – Technical” (WO277/24) includes a section on fuels (pp211-3) - my edits in [ ] :

    “The Grade III petrol which was in common use at the beginning of the War gave, on the whole, little trouble in both ‘A’ and ‘B’ vehicles. [ .....] “ It then goes on -

    1942
    MT 80 fuel, with a lead content of 3.6cc per imperial gallon, was substituted in 1942 for MT 87 for American tank engines, which necessitated modifications to reduce the compression ratio of certain American engines in use with British forces. Difficulties due to gum formation in the petrol system of vehicles became a troublesome factor, particularly with vehicles in store, and a great deal of investigation was carried out by REME in conjunction with RASC and RAOC Vehicle Storage Depots on this problem. Additives to the petrol were tried but without conclusive results. The effects observed were choked filters, sticking valves, corrosion etc.

    1943
    MT 80 petrol was introduced for British engines, and very soon reports poured into the DME War Office from various theatres of war of very serious troubles, the chief of which were burning of valves, mainly on ‘B’ vehicles and charging sets.
    [Para on charging sets omitted]
    In the case of ‘B’ vehicles, the trouble was mainly confined to certain makes and types for which modifications were made to exhaust valves and guides for operation on leaded fuel. Valves manufactured from an alloy steel containing 20% of chromium (instead of the usual 8%) were introduced as rapidly as possible to increase the life of engines between overhauls.
    {Para on 80 octane petrol in AFV’s omitted]
    It will be seen from the above that the whole problem of octane fuel values of petrol available for issue resulted in an immense amount of modification and additional maintenance work for REME, a serious interference with the operational functioning of small and ‘B’ vehicle engines and the additional complication of the supply problem in the field.”

    Unfortunately none of this is more closely dated, nor are the vehicles most affected named, so I may be pointing up a blind alley !

    John Woods
     
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  7. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Welcome to the forum.

    Good info. Thanks
     
  8. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Hi John - thanks for the above!

    Everyone - in the meantime Tom O'Brien has turned up the following...

    From -

    ..."No.1 M.T.C. WEYMOUTH" would be No. 1 Wading Trials Centre REME, Weymouth.

    If we could track down exactly WHEN those particular trials occured that showed up the Austin seizure fault, we could get a handle on how long it took Austins to work up and test the solution we know about.
     
  9. Pocahontas

    Pocahontas Pocahontas

     
  10. Pocahontas

    Pocahontas Pocahontas

    Hi Phylo,

    My Father in law worked at M.E.13 No.1 Experimental Workshops REME (Wading) Weymouth during WW2 for the build up to D-Day landings. They were tasked with many things in the main waterproofing trial and experimentation for B Vehicles. Other team members produced the instruction cards for waterproofing, they also train the British and allied forces in the procedures and techniques for water proofing.

    The problem with Austin K5 was as follows: -

    The teams at Number 1 Experimental Workshops REME (Wading) Weymouth conducted their experimental wading trials with vehicles that had approximately more than 500 miles on the clock. This meant that some form of bedding-in had taken place for the engine. Manufacturing tolerances did cause the engines to be tight but because there was 500 miles on the clock the pistons, piston rings and cylinder bores had some degree of wear on them, hence the engine had loosened up somewhat. Many of these vehicles with 500 miles on the clock successfully passed their wading trails. The teams at Number 1 Experimental Workshops REME (Wading) Weymouth then conducted their experimental wading trials with new vehicles straight from the factories with Zero miles on the clock, so the engines were tight, being closer to manufacturing tolerances. During war time, there was a shortage of Aluminium, most of it was utilised for aircraft manufacture. The development of Aluminium for the manufacture of pistons and engine blocks had not reached its peak until many years after war. Therefore, pistons and piston cylinder blocks were both manufactured from cast iron. This is fine under normal operating conditions, as both pistons and piston cylinder block expand and contract at the same rate, with the vehicles cooling system preventing the engine from overheating. As before with the inlet manifold problem, when the vehicle was plunged into ice cold sea water there was rapid cooling of the engine block. As well as the requirement to warm the engine before disembarking from the landing craft, drivers were instructed to maintain the Engine RPM above 2,500 rpm to prevent stalling of the engine, in most cases the throttle was on the floor, a wide-open throttle.

    So, the pistons were hurtling up and down the cylinder bores at 2,500 rpm or above getting hot and expanding, whilst the cylinder block was being rapidly cooled down and contracting. The vehicle cooling system had little effect in circulating the previously warmed hot water from the engine, as the belt driving the water pump slipped on the water pump pulley as it hit the sea water. The volume of sea water also contributed to stalling the fan blades, and consequently the water pump pulley that the fan was attached to. In most case the previously warmed hot water was not being circulated and preventing the piston cylinder block from contracting. Therefore, the engine seized or stalled, when they were re-started after pistons and cylinder blocks were at the same temperatures, the damaged had already been done. Piston rings seized, small metallic deposits on the cylinder bore walls caused the piston rings to snag. Had they driven on after this, the engine was doomed for rapid failure, due to excessive oil passing the piston rings and being burnt in the upper part of the combustion chamber.

    Once more another challenge, in addition to others, they did not have the manpower to drive all these new vehicles for 500 miles, let alone the fuel and time required to do this. The manufacturers once again come to the rescue, they sent a set of pistons to Weymouth with slightly different tolerance i.e. they were ever so slightly smaller. It mimicked an engine that had already done 500 miles, or if you like it made the engine slack and not tight. The teams at Number 1 Experimental Workshops REME (Wading) Weymouth, fitted these pistons, then waded the vehicles, it all worked fine.


    The manufacturers then deployed teams from the factories to fit these smaller pistons to the vehicles that required them, these were located at the numerous VRD’s all over the South of England. The key lesson here for the team was always to conduct an experimental wade on new vehicle with its new engine.

    There is no doubt that your deduction on piston design, fuel and oil quality all had their impact on rapid wear however, they left the landing craft with smaller pistons/piston rings.

    I guess the good news is that the majority of these vehicles landed safely and unscathed, we won the war and learnt many things about waterproofing. The immense modifications that took place on “A” and “B” vehicles had detrimental effects on longevity of service life of the whole vehicle, all history now as the majority did exactly what they said they would do.


    Grand Master Splash and his Furious Ride.
     
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  11. Pocahontas

    Pocahontas Pocahontas

    Hi All,

    My wife and I have just published a book titled “World War II Waterproofing and Wading in Weymouth” Preparation for the D-Day landings on the Normandy beaches. Please find attached copy of Front/back cover below front cover on the right and the back cover on the left, the contents/acknowledgement pages of the book are also pasted below FYI.

    This publication details Ted, my father-in-law’s activities preparing the vehicles for the D-Day landings on the Normandy beaches during WW2.

    Ted served as a project sergeant at M.E.13 No.1 Experimental Workshop R.E.M.E. (Wading) Weymouth during WW2, where he and a team of over 50 men, had sole responsibility for experimental trials and the waterproofing of wheeled military vehicles. My wife and I have launched the book this year to specifically commemorate the 80th anniversary of the D-Day landings on the Normandy beaches.

    We have had the honour and privilege of gaining in-depth knowledge from Ted’s experiences, being directly involved in the preparation of the vehicles for the D-Day landings. Ted passed in early 1990, so to ensure authenticity and detailed accounts of his countless stories, it has taken over 30 years to appropriately record, compile and complete the book.

    There are no available books in the marketplace or in museums that specifically cover the precise detail of the role of M.E.13 No.1 Experimental Workshop R.E.M.E. (Wading) Weymouth during WW2. This is the first book to cover the detailed, specific, and important role that M.E.13 No.1 Experimental Workshop R.E.M.E. (Wading) Weymouth performed during WW2.

    The book has been created with the full collaboration of the R.E.M.E. Museum in Lyneham Uk. They granted full permission to use images from their waterproofing archives and have proofread the book for historical authenticity and accuracy. Here are their comments concerning the book :- R.E.M.E. Museum Lyneham, Wiltshire, UK: - A very interesting book which provides insights and highlights wider aspects of the whole waterproofing endeavour, such as driver training in order to drive off the LCTs; a nice overview of the logistics and how the many, varied, and different requirements all fitted into the big picture; learning about the use of ARVs and BARVs at Weymouth. What really comes to the fore is the amazing and meticulous research and hard work they all had to do. The demonstration and illustration of locations and context is particularly useful, and the colour images are fantastic. The old cliché that you learn something new every day is actually quite true.

    Naturally there are many images of Weymouth in the book, the workshop at Lower Bond Street and many images of vehicles conducting experimental wading on Town beach. Some of these images are unpublished and not seen in the public domain for over 80 years as they are from the Father-in-laws personal archives of his time in Weymouth during WWII from Sept 1943 to July 1946.

    The book has a total of 138 pages, the whole book has been printed of good quality 115gsm silk paper to get the best from the many colour and Black & White images, the front & Back covers have been printed on high quality 250gsm gloss paper for durability. A copy of the book can be purchased for £11.95, + £3 P&P for UK customers. Shipping costs may vary for overseas customers as they will have to include, currency conversion fees along with other costs. We will confirm shipping costs to overseas customers before billing therefore please specify your location before placing orders so that we can calculate accurate shipping costs for you. Overseas customers will be responsible for paying any customs duties payable in each of their respective countries.

    Follow the website link below to purchase a copy of the book

    Shop (rrccustoms.co.uk)

    We hope the website is not too confusing, its my sons website, he designs and manufactures bespoke carbon fibre chassis and chassis components for RC model cars. Specifically off road 4X4 rock climbing RC's which are exceptionally durable.

    The instructions to purchase the book we hope are straight forward, any problems just email me on this post, on the "Shop" website page navigate to the insert where you will find the book.

    Please find uploaded files below detailing Front/Back book cover and Contents/Acknowledgement pages FYI.

    Thanks Ann & Mike Jones
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    I have in my researches discovered that the problem with MT 80 petrol was not that it was higher octane, but that it was LEADED, unlike the previous standard War Office Grade III petrol. This promoted accelerated valve wear in British engines, because their valves were made from Silchrome No.1, whereas to withstand the particular combustion characteristics produced by leaded petrol they needed to be manufactured from XB.

    Very important document that explains all this here:

    Canadian Military Headquarters, London : C-5781 - Héritage

    The use of MT 80 reduced the engine life of all British trucks in NWE, which led to them garnering an inferior reputation for reliability than US trucks, although from the Autumn of 1944 replacement XB valves started to be supplied for all British 'B' vehicles.
     

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