Just been watching some footage of the US navy in action against Japanese Navy and airforce. have to say they were outstanding. Especially against the Kamakarzi dive bombers. Considering the RN were at full strength at the start of wwII and they hadnt lost ships at Dunkirk, Atlantic and in the Med. how do you think they would have performed against The bigger ships, Subs, Torpeado's and dive bombers. ive got a feeling it would have been disasterous. what do you think. cheers guys
Initially they faired terribly - the RN lost the battleship Prince of Wales and the battle cruiser Repulse to Japanes air attack on the 10 the Dec 1941. Part of the problem was that almost all of the RN ships were engaged in the war against Germany. Another problem was that the British Government didn't appreciate the real threat from the Japanese until it was too late (even though they were repeatedly warned by their overseas bases in India and singapore). Some relied too much on Singapore (which, without the capital ships that were originally planned to be based there, was just a white elephant). As more and more ships were freed up from the European conflict, the RN participation became greater, and they did indeed prove to be a worthy opponent to the Japanese. One example where they faired better is in the kamikazi attacks on aircraft carriers - the METAL decks on the RN ships weren't so vulnerable. If you're interested in RN ship losses to the Japanese then (an occassional loss to the Germans may have slipped into the list!): SOUTH EAST ASIA 1941 41/12/10 Battlecruiser REPULSE (33,250, 1916) Sunk by Japanese torpedo-aircraft, E coast of Malaya SE Asia 41/12/10 Battleship PRINCE OF WALES (35,000t, 31/3/41) Sunk by Japanese torpedo-aircraft, E coast of Malaya SE Asia 41/12/10 Minesweeper BANKA (R, 623t, 1914) Sunk by mine or aircraft, E. Coast of Malaya. 41/12/13 Examination vessel TUNG WO (R, 1,337t, 1914) Abandoned as a result of enemy action off Penang, Malaya. 41/12/30 Armed trader KUDAT (R, 1,725t, 1914) Sunk by A/C at Port Swettenham, Malaya. 1942 42/01/16 Motor launch KELANA (R, 88t) Sunk by aircraft. Malaya. 42/01/21 Collier ZANNIS L CAMBANIS (R, 5,317t, 1920). Mined off Singapore 42/01/22 Armed trader LARUT (R, 894t, 1927). Sunk by aircraft off E coast of Sumatra 42/01/22 Armed trader RAUB (R, 1,161t, 1926). Sunk by aircraft off E coast of Sumatra 42/01/27 Destroyer THANET (1,000t, 1919) Sunk in action with Japanese surface craft, off Malaya 42/02 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel TIEN KWANG (R, 787t, 1925) Lost or destroyed to falling into enemy hands, Singapore Area. 42/02 Boom defence vessel DOWGATE (290t, 1935) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into Japanese hands at Singapore 42/02 Boom defence vessel LUDGATE (290t, 1935) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into Japanese hands at Singapore 42/02 Examination vessel SOLEN (R). Presumed lost at Singapore 42/02 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.180-185 (total 6, 8-11t each) Lost at Singapore 42/02 Motor launch ML PENGHAMBAT Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into enemy hands at Singapore 42/02 Motor launch ML PENINGAT (R) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into enemy hands at Singapore 42/02 Patrol vessel GIANG BEE (R, 1,646t, 1908) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into enemy hands Singapore area. 42/02 Small craft SHUN AN (R). Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into Japanese hands, Singapore 42/02 Tug WO KWANG (R, 350t, 1927). Assumed lost at Singapore 42/02/11 Armed trader LIPIS (R, 845t, 1927). Believed lost by enemy action, off Singapore 42/02/13 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel SHU KWANG (R, 788t, 1924) Sunk by aircraft, Dutch East Indies 42/02/13 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel SIANG WO (R, 2,595t, 1926) Bombed and beached Dutch East Indies. 42/02/13 Boom accomodation ship SUI WO (R, 2,672t, 1896) Lost or destroyed to prevent falling into Japanese hands at Singapore 42/02/13 Minesweeper HUA TONG (R, 280t, 1927) Sunk by aircraft in Palembang River, Sumatra. 42/02/13 River gun boat SCORPION (700t, 1938) Sunk by gunfire from Japanese surface craft, Banka Straits, after aircraft attack on the 9th 42/02/14 Armed trader VYNER BROOKE (R, 1,670t, 1928). Sunk by aircraft off Banka Straits, Sumatra 42/02/14 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel KUALA (R, 954t, 1911) Sunk by aircraft, Dutch East Indies. 42/02/14 Minelayer KUNG WO (R, 4,636t, 1921) Sunk by aircraft bombs near Lingga Archipelago, Singapore area. 42/02/14 Minesweeper CHANGTEH (R, 244t) Sunk by aircraft bombs, Singapore area 42/02/14 Motor launch ML No.311 (73t, 29/11/41) Sunk by Japanese gunfire. Banka Straits, Sumatra. 42/02/14 River gun boat DRAGONFLY (625t, 1939) Sailing from Singapore and sunk by aircraft bombs 42/02/14 River gun boat GRASSHOPPER (625t, 1939) Sailing from Singapore and sunk by aircraft bombs 42/02/14 Tug PENGAWAL. Sunk by aircraft, Durian Straits, Singapore 42/02/14 Tug ST BREOCK (810t), Sunk by aircraft bombs off Sumatra 42/02/14 Tug ST JUST (810t, 1919) Sunk by aircraft, Durian Straits, Singapore 42/02/14 Whaler TRANG (R, 205t, 1912) Fired and abandoned, Cooper Channel, Singapore 42/02/15 Minesweeper KLIAS (R, 207t, 1927) Scuttled at Palembang, Sumatra 42/02/15 Tug YIN PING (R, 1914) Sunk by gunfire 42/02/16 Motor launch ML No.1062 (40t, 9/42) Sunk by gunfire, Banka Straits, Sumatra. 42/02/17 Minesweeper JARAK (R, 208t) Sunk by A/C bombs, Singapore area 42/02/18 Minesweeper MALACCA (R, 210t, 1927) Scuttled in Tjemako river, Sumatra 42/02/27 Destroyer ELECTRA (1,375t, 1934) Sunk by surface craft, gunfire, Java Sea 42/02/27 Destroyer JUPITER (1,760t, 25/6/39) Sunk by torpedo, Java Sea 42/02/28 Auxiliary anti-submarine vessel MATA HARI (R, 1,020t, 1915) Sunk by aircraft in Sunda Strait, Java Sea. 42/02-03 Minesweeper FUH WO (R, 953t, 1922) Lost by enemy action or destroyed at Singapore 42/02-03 Minesweeper LI WO (R, 707t,1938) Lost by enemy action or destroyed at Singapore 42/02-03 Minesweeper SIN AIK LEE (R, 198t, 1928) Lost by enemy action or destroyed at Singapore 42/02-03 Minesweeper TAPAH (R, 208t, 1926) Lost by enemy action or destroyed at Singapore 42/03 Whaler JERAM (R, 210t, 1927) Presumed lost, Singapore area 42/03/01 Cruiser EXETER (8,390t, 1931) Sunk in action with Japanese surface craft, Java Seas 42/03/01 Destroyer ENCOUNTER (1,375t, 1934) Sunk in action, surface craft, Java Sea 42/03/01 Motor launch ML No.1063 (40t, 1/42) Sunk in action, Tanjong Priok, Java. 42/03/01 Tanker/oiler WAR SIRDAR (5,518t, 1920). Lost on reef, NW Batavia 42/03/01 Whaler RAHMAN (R, 209t, 1926) Lost or destroyed, Batavia 42/03/02 Destroyer STRONGHOLD (905t, 1919) Sunk in action, surface craft, South of Java 42/03/02 Whaler GEMAS (R, 207t, 1925) Scuttled, Tjilatjap, Java 42/03/03 Minesweeper SCOTT HARLEY (R, 620t, 1913) Sunk, probably by surface craft, Indian Ocean 42/03/03 Tanker/oiler FRANCOL (2,623t, 1917). Sunk by gunfire of Japanese surface craft, S of Java 42/03/03 Base ship ANKING (R, 3,472t, 1925) Sunk by gunfire from Japanese surface craft, S of Java, Indian Ocean 42/03/04 Motor minesweeper MMS No.51 (226t, 29/11/41) Scuttled S of Java to prevent capture by Japanese. 42/03/08 Whaler JERANTUT (R, 217t, 1927) Scuttled, Palembang, Sumatra 42/12/25 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.36 (8-11t) Lost by fire at Chittagong, India. Date given as 24th-25th 1943 43/01 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.203-206 (total 4, 8-11t each) Lost at Sourabaya, Java (in January 1943?) 43/01/03 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.17 (8-11t) Lost by fire at Chittagong, India 43/03 Landing craft support (Medium) (MkI) LCS(M) No.23 (9-13.5t) Lost on patrol, Mayu River, Burma 43/04/25 Landing craft support (Medium) (MkI) LCS(M) No.17 (9-13.5t) Sunk by enemy action, Mayu River, Burma 1944 44/03 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.76, Lost in E Indies. Date reported 44/03/22 Submarine STONEHENGE (715t, 15/6/43) Lost on patrol, probably off Nicobar Islands, Indian Ocean, Date approximate 44/05 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.131, 182, 183, 207, 209 (total 5, 30-37t each) Lost in E Indies. Date reported 44/06 Landing craft assault LCA No.33, 56, 146 (total 3, 11-13.5t each) Lost in E Indies. Date reported 44/06 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.91 (30-37t) Lost in E Indies. Date reported 44/07 Landing craft assault LCA No.54 (11-13.5t) Lost in E Indies. Date reported 44/10/28 Human torpedo/Chariot No.79/LXXIX (1.94t, 17/4/44) Lost in operation, Puket Harbour, Thailand 44/10/28 Human torpedo/Chariot No.80/LXXX (1.94t, 15/5/44) Lost in operation, Puket Harbour, Thailand 44/11 Landing craft tank (MkV) LCT No.2461 291-311t) Capsized and sunk by gunfire, Bay of Bengal. 44/11/22 Submarine STRATAGEM (715t, 9/10/43) Sunk by surface vessel, depth-charges, off Malacca, East Indies 1945 45/01/19 Submarine PORPOISE (1,500t, 1933) Sunk, probably by aircraft , Malacca Strait, E Indies. Date approximate 45/01/24 Motor launch ML No.891 (75t, 28/3/44) Sunk by mine, Kyauk Pyu, N of Ramree Island, Burma 45/03/05 Landing craft personnel (Ramped) LCP(R) No.979 (9-11t) Lost when in use as ship's boat in Eastern Theatre. 45/04 Landing craft mechanised (MkIII) LCM No.1319,1327 (total 2, 52t each) Lost on Arakan Coast, Burma 45/05/02 Landing craft tank (MkIV) LCT No.1238 (611-640t) Mined in Rangoon River, Burma 45/05/09 Motor launch ML No.905 (75t, 10/5/44) Foundered in tidal wave, Sittang River estuary, Burma 45/05/09 Motor launch ML No.591 (75t, 18/4/44) Foundered in tidal wave, Sittang River estuary, Burma 45/05/29 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.344, 378 (total 2, 8-11t each) Sunk at Akyab, Burma. 45/06 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.354, 493 (total 2, 30-37t) Lost in operations on Arakan Coast, Burma. Date reported 45/06 Landing craft support (Medium) (MkII) LCS(M) No.30 (12.5t) Lost in operations on Arakan Coast, Burma. Date reported 45/06 Landing craft support (Medium) (MkIII) LCS(M) No.148 (13.5t) Lost in operations on Arakan Coast, Burma. Date reported 45/07/24 Minesweeper SQUIRREL (940t, 16/8/44) Damaged by mine off Puket, Siam (Thailand). Sunk by own forces 45/07/26 Minesweeper VESTAL (940t, 10/9/43) Sunk by aircraft, off Puket, Siam (Thailand) Possibly SOUTH EAST ASIA 1944 44/ Landing craft mechanised (MkIII) LCM No.525, 559, 591, 650, 907 (total 5, 52t each) Lost overseas, presumed during 1944. 44/ Landing craft personnel (Ramped) LCP(R) No.640, 735, 978, 982, 987, 989, 991, 993, 1023 (total 9, 9-11t) Lost overseas, presumed during 1944. 44/ Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.540, 760 (total 2, 8-11t each) Lost overseas, presumed during 1944. 44/05 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.212, 215, 218, 219, 243, 272, 277, 285, 288, 324 (total 10, 30-37t each) Lost oveseas. Date reported 44/05 Landing craft mechanised (MkIII) LCM No.527, 534, 540, 588, 1029, 1045, 1071, 1083, 1123, 1171, 1205 (total 11, 52t each) Lost overseas. Date reported 44/05 Landing craft personnel (Large) LCP(L) No.8, 263, 287, 577 (total 4, 8-11t each) Lost overseas. Date reported 44/05 Landing craft personnel (Ramped) LCP(R) No.614, 634, 663, 824, 844, 912. 913, 995 (total 8, 9-11t each) Lost overseas. Date reported 44/06 Landing craft mechanised (MkI) LCM No.295 (30-37t) Lost overseas. to top of page EAST ASIA 1941 41/12/08 River gun boat PETEREL (310t, 1927) Sunk by Japanese Forces at Shanghai. 41/12/09 Special service vessel KANTUNG (R) Sunk as blockship in Anking Harbour 41/12/09 Special service vessel MACAO (R) Sunk as blockship in Anking Harbour 41/12/12 River gun boat MOTH (625t, 1916) Scuttled at Hong Kong. 41/12/15 Tug INDIRA (R, 637t, 1918) Sunk during air attack on Hong Kong. 41/12/16 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.8 (18t, 1937) Destroyed by fire during raid on Hong Kong. 41/12/19 Boom defence vessel ALDGATE (290t, 1934) Scuttled at Hong Kong 41/12/19 Boom defence vessel BARLIGHT (730t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong 41/12/19 Boom defence vessel WATERGATE (290t, 1934) Scuttled at Hong Kong 41/12/19 Minelayer REDSTART (498t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong. 41/12/19 River gun boat TERN (262t, 1917) Scuttled at Hong Kong. 41/12/20 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.12 (18t, 1938) Sunk in action with Japanese landing craft, Hong Kong 41/12/20 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.26 (14t, 1938) Sunk in action with Japanese landing craft, Hong Kong 41/12/21 River gun boat CICALA (625t, 1916) Sunk by aircraft bombs, Hong Kong. 41/12/25 River gun boat ROBIN (226t, 1934) Scuttled at Hong Kong. 41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.7 (18t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong. 41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.9 (18t, 1937) Scuttled at Hong Kong 41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.10 (18t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong 41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.11 (18t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong 41/12/26 Motor torpedo boat MTB No.27 (14t, 1938) Scuttled at Hong Kong 1942 42/ Small craft MATCHLOCK (70t). Sunk by mine at Canton, China, date unknown to top of page PACIFIC OCEAN 1944 44/12 Landing craft assault LCA No.1188 (11-13.5t) Lost in Solomon Islands, SW Pacific 1945 45/02/26 Landing craft assault LCA No.1161 (11-13.5t) Lost through heavy weather at Leyte, Philippines 45/03/27 Landing craft assault LCA No.1472 (11-13.5t) Lost at Leyte, Philippines 45/03/30 Landing craft assault LCA No.1433 (11-13.5t) Smashed by heavy seas, Admiralty Islands, SW Pacific
p.s. I forgot to mention that I'm currently reading "The Forgotten Air Force: The Royal Air Force in the War against Japan 1941-45", and in it the writer is scathing of the preparations for war (or rather lack of preparations), especially in Singapore. He talks about the conflicts between London and the commanders in Singapore, the conflicts between the different branch commanders, and the almost paternalistic disdain of any intelligence reports that indicated that the Japanese navy and air force were excellent, and quite capable of fighting and winning engagements against the British. Well worth a read.
I belive you ment to say: The metal decks of the RN carriers were less vulnerable to the kamikazi attacks. Other than that, spot on assesment.
I belive you ment to say: The metal decks of the RN carriers were less vulnerable to the kamikazi attacks. Other than that, spot on assesment. Whoops - I always get that the wrong way around. Cheers DD.
cheers kyt those figures just shows how many ships the uk supplied to the far east campaign. you say that the RN improved in the later years but was that due to the involment of the yanks. im interested in how good the RN actually were. there no disputing that they saved Britain with the Atlantic campaign, Dunkirk etc. but the Bismark sank our ellite ship the Hood and the RN had to gang up on the bismark to sink it. also the RN stayed away from the tirpitz ...well you could say the tirpitz stayed away from us. but it was the RAF who were sent in to destroy it. just how would the RN have faired against the big boys one on one thanks for your help
I suppose the most succinct response would be to quote from Royal Navy, warships, WW2, battleships, battlecruisers, aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers, submarines, escorts " September 1939 - Strengths and Weaknesses The Fleet was reasonably well-equipped to fight conventional surface actions with effective guns, torpedoes and fire control, but in a maritime war that would soon revolve around the battle with the U-boat, the exercise of air power, and eventually the ability to land large armies on hostile shores, the picture was far from good. ASDIC, the RN's answer to the submarine, had limited range and was of little use against surfaced U-boats, and the stern-dropped or mortar-fired depth charge was the only reasonably lethal anti-submarine weapon available. The Fleet Air Arm (FAA) recently returned to full control of the Navy, was equipped with obsolescent aircraft, and in the face of heavy air attack the Fleet had few, modern anti-aircraft guns. Co-operation with the RAF was limited although three Area Combined Headquarters had been established in Britain. Coastal Command, the RAF's maritime wing, had only short range aircraft, mainly for reconnaissance. And there was little combined operations capability. On the technical side, early air warning radars were fitted to a small number of ships. The introduction by the Germans of magnetic mines found the Royal Navy only equipped to sweep moored contact mines. Finally, the German Navy's B-Service could read the Navy's operational and convoy codes." Comparing the numbers of ships available to the different countries, the actual experince of each navy and the capabilities of the crews would give the impression that the RN could hold their own at the beginning of the war. However, if you want a scenario of battleship against battleship, then seeing as the Japanese built some of the biggest battleships of the war, then the RN would have lost.
My Brother served on HMS Sussex in the Indian Ocean,do not know if they saw action ,do know that they relieved Singapore and he was among the first into Changi Prison,his only statement on the subject was "yes they were in quite a mess" I only found out he was there when I read "Naked Island".
This one is a good job on the subject, from Force Z to the British Pacific Fleet (Task Force 57): Operation Pacific, by Edwyn Gray
The Attack by HMS Li Wo Now when the Japanese invaded Malaya and things were coming to an end a converted river ship was quickly converted and went to war. It had one 3 inch gun on it and a dozen rounds of practise ammunition. It sailed out into a Japanese convoy guarded by Battle Crustier and sank the largest ship in the convoy before being blown to bits along with the crew, and one of them was my Cousin
MATA HARI, aboard which my aunt was, was not sunk, she was captured by a Japanese cruiser, and the crew and passengers arrested and taken ashore to spend the next three-and-a-half years as prisoners. My brother-n-law served aboard HMS SUSSEX, and I can assure you that she was in action against the Japanese, being hit by a Kamikaze aeroplane.
Quite a fun site comparing seven battleships of ww2: Battleship Comparison I've always like that site. I wish they had included the HMS Vanguard. She was a good one too. Dave
Quite a fun site comparing seven battleships of ww2: Battleship Comparison A rather biased comparison. It compares ships in service in 1940 with others that hadn't been laid down yet. Why doesn't it compare the North Carolina as launched? Now, compare the ships in commission in Jan 1941, how do they compare? It's great to trumpet a post-treaty design that arrived in 1943, but it doesn't help much if you urgently need ships in 1940 - 1941 does it? I belive you ment to say: The metal decks of the RN carriers were less vulnerable to the kamikazi attacks. . Unfortunately it was the wooden heads in London that caused most of the problems.
the Bismark sank our ellite ship the Hood and the RN had to gang up on the bismark to sink it. also the RN stayed away from the tirpitz ...well you could say the tirpitz stayed away from us. but it was the RAF who were sent in to destroy it. Actually the Tirpitz was attacked several times by the RN. RN carriers. (FAA is RN, not RAF) The Tirpitz also retired from British battleships, they were only willing to challenge unarmed cargo ships. just how would the RN have faired against the big boys one on one thanks for your help It really depended on the circumstances. one on one? If it was the 35,000 ton K.G.V. vs the 70,000 ton Yamato, the Japanese obviously have an advantage. If the British ship was up against the older Nagato, it could go either way. If the British fleet has an aircraft carrier they might well decide to launch a night attack with radar equipped torpedo bombers. (as was done with Bismarck)
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/LondonGazette/38308.pdf RN Despatch http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/LondonGazette/38214.pdf Prince of Wales and Repulse Despatch There are more RN and RAF Despatches from theatre here: HyperWar: United Kingdom London Gazette Despatches http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/LondonGazette/38204.pdf Tirpitz
The best book on this subject is probably Arthur Marder's Old Friends, New Enemies. You can't just tot up battleships, though. The RN (including RAN and RNZN) had a fair number of ships in the East in December 1941, but the force as a whole was badly balanced. There was only one little carrier (Hermes), not enough destroyers, and no submarines. Many ships were obsolescent and slow. They weren't concentrated, either, but scattered from the Indian Ocean to Hong Kong on convoy and other duties. RAF support for the fleet was sadly lacking. The supposed main base, Singapore, could not have supported a full fleet anyway.
Kyt's details are really good For the most part, except I think he actually meant to add armored flight decks. US carriers had metal flight decks. They were covered by wood decking. The ship's deck armor was carried one deck down at the hangar deck. I'm not adding this to spark another debate on the values of one over the other; there are several threads already dedicated to that. I was just pointing out a misnomer in the poster's comment.
4. Doubt as to our ability to operate in the Pacific manner was somewhat naturally in American minds. This, however, was soon •changed. The toll taken by the suicide bomber of the more lightly armoured American carriers led to an increase in the proportionate effort provided by our carriers, and the evidence of American eyes that we could support ourselves logistically, relieved their anxieties on that score. We have now, I am sure', 'become not only welcome but necessary in Central Pacific •operations. From 1st link of #17 above
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/jfq_pubs/4017.pdf "The Short but Brilliant Life of The British Pacific Fleet" A short but very readable piece by Prof. Nichloas E Sarantakes. The BPF was truely an Empire / Commonwealth Fleet. If it was around today it would be the largest fleet on earth. Back then, it was a commponent of the US 3rd & 5th Fleets. The US Navy had the resources to defeat Japan without any help but Prof Sarantakes argues that having the British along side provided diplomatic, political and operational advantages that far outweighed the complications. If you've never seen this doc before I hope you enjoy reading it.
