Hi, trying to find which division of the Transvaal Scottish my Uncle Allan Dally was a part of. I think it must of been the 2nd division for some of the info matches with what I have. What confuses me is the story about how he got capture. My uncle and a part of his regiment were walking in the desert for many hours to get to Cairo. Not far from Tobruk while swimming in the sea to cool down they heard the sound of a German Tiger Tank on the cliff above them. Looking up they saw the tank pointing its gun at them. The German officer got out of the tank and told them in perfect English that their holiday was over. They were first taken to Italy and then onto Germany to a POW camp Stalag. They were put to work as farm workers in Sardinia and then in a coal mine in Germany. My Uncle and his fellow soldiers were freed by the Russians, aparently the Russian's had asked the men who amoung the Germany guards had mistreated them. After been pointed out the Russian's short them immediatly. My uncle and then others where then first flown to Moscow, then to London via France on an American bomer. And final back to South Africa. My question is, was he apart of the 2nd division of the Transvaal Scottish? How come was a division on their own in the dessert try to get back to Cairo? Why did they not stay in Italy as POW but taken to Germany instead?
Hi, I cannot answer your particular question, but the Transvaal Scottish have been discussed on the forum a few times. Try using the search engine in the top right hand corner of the page, but only after returning to 'view new content' first. Best wishes Steve
Hello and welcome I'll answer this one for you as it's straightforward enough. In early September 1943 Italy capitulated. Prisoners had received orders to 'stand fast' and wait for the Allies to fight towards them, ie over run the area where their camps were located. This was enforced by many camp leaders, their own officers. Although some POWs ignored the order and escaped, the Germans took over the camps a day or two later and sent the prisoners by train to German territory. Leaving them in Italy, where potentially many could have escaped, either creating mayhem behind the lines or returning to fighting units was not an option for the Germans...the majority of the prisoners in Italy had already been transported away from one battlefield in North Africa. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/8/newsid_3612000/3612037.stm http://www.britishpathe.com/video/italy-capitulation http://www.ww2f.com/topic/26242-ww2-blunder-doomed-50000-british-pows/ I'm afraid I'm not sure about the procedures for getting copy service records for SA personnel, but it is something you should try and look into yourself - if no one else here can advise. (Edited year, it was a typo, honest Gov )
There wouldnt have been any Tiger tanks near Tobruk. Also I think you mean '' trying to find which battalion of the Transvaal Scottish'' rather than '' trying to find which division of the Transvaal Scottish''.
Surrender was September 1943 You need to know if it was the 1st or 2nd or 3rd Battalion. 1st Battalion got partially bagged at Tobruk, 2nd Battalion got bagged at Tobruk, and 3rd battalion got bagged at Sidi Rezegh and never went to Tobruk. All the best Andreas
Thanks Guys Let me get this straight, acording to you Andreas only to Battalions had something to do with Tobruk. The way the story goes it sounds like my Uncle and some men were trying to get back to Cairo, there is no mention of him fighting at Tobruk. Just that they had been wondering in the desert and made there way to the sea for a swim. And if there were no German Tiger Tanks at Tobruk why would he mention them? Then were was my Uncle? and what was he doing in the desert? I will have to ask the relatives if they know anything more. Were there ever any German's in Egypt? I have pictures of my Uncle from the war, but most of them are showing him and some soldiers having a holiday. Not much fighting on there part. Picture of him at Cairo, Tripoli and Alexandria. It looks more like a fun time than war!?
Lots of Veterans confuse any German tank for a 'Tiger'. First use of a Tiger in North Africa was in Tunisia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I#First_actions I would suggest you apply for his service records but I dont know where you would get them from. South African Forces arent my strong point. edit aha just found this on CWGC website. http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty-details/amending-records/documentary-evidence/to-obtain-a-service-record.aspx SOUTH AFRICA All South African Service Records: Any request for information on South African Military Personnel from 1910 up to the present day should be addressed to Documentation Centre SA National Defence Force Private Bag X289 PRETORIA 0001 SOUTH AFRICA Tel: (27) 12 322 6350 Fax: (27) 12 322 5613 E-mail: sandfdoc@mweb.co.za
Thanks Owen. I have written to the the South African Military Documentation Centre, but not about by Uncle. I was looking for info on my grandfather and brothers that also fought in the war. One of which died in Italy and the other died in WWI, I got all the info about them. But my grandfather and one other brother that came home after the war, I have not heard a thing from the documentation centre about them, it is over four months now. Will it not be hard to find a soldier if you do not have much info on him? like his rack and number?
African Dove Most likely he was in 1st battalion of 2nd division who were making their way back to Cairo after the retreat from Gazala it was all a bit mixed up in those days- or he might have escaped from Tobruk when Klopper surrendered - you need his records to get to the truth… Cheers
At the time of the Tobruk debacle, the 1st Battalion, Transvaal Scottish served under the 1st South Infantry Brigade of the 1st South African Division, which had to withdraw from the Gazala line through Tobruk and along the coast. The 2nd Battalion, Transvaal Scottish served under the 6th South African Infantry Brigade of the 2nd South African Division in the Defence of Tobruk and was captured there along with the brigade. The 3rd Battalion, Transvaal Scottish had been decimated at Sidi Rezegh under the 5th South African Infantry Brigade of the 1st South African Infantry Division in 1941 and was deactivated officially on March 3rd, 1942. Based on the story above, I would lean toward the 1st Battalion, Transvaal Scottish since they were withdrawing along the coast and would seem to fit into the story. The 2nd were bagged fighting in Tobruk and the 3rd were long gone by this time.
I've edited 'POW' into the thread title. I know that some members maybe able to look up his name on POW lists & that should reveal his army number & rank, I hope.
From Ancestry. No idea if this is the right man though. Name: F A Dally Rank: Pte Army Number: 32325 Camp Type: Stalag Camp Number: 4B Camp Location: Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany Section: South African Land Forces : Officers and Other Ranks
Just to back up dbf's good work, attached is this POW's entry in WO392/21. As always, we must remember that this document has been known to contain errors.
Sorry for answering only now! Thanks Tom, dryan67 and Owen. dby you are good! you found him and seeing the auction info made me recall the day he showed me his medels. And he had said he was going to sell them. I forgot all about that! At the time I was not so involved in the family tree so I did not ask him for copies of his papers. Sigh, why does one only want these things when it is to late! Thanks bamboo for the info. I was going through photos that my Uncle took during the war and saw that he had written on the back of them. One battle he talks about is the Sollum affiar, that he and the others were involved in.
Hi all, I thought to add a pic on the Sollum Operation for those that would perhaps like to have a pic or two of it. This is not my own work, it is reproduced from a book in the Mil Archives, who's reference i have long miss placed .
Long time coming here is what I got on my Uncle Alan Dally's service record. A Private in the 2nd Tvl Scottish Regiment Middle East Theatre 20 Jun 1941 to 20 Jun 1942 Taken prisoner on the 20 Jun 1942 Germany Pow camp 54 There is no mention of him first been in Italy, though the family remember stories he told about Italy.
