Valentines on a North Country Moor - 25-26d8m1941

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Ramiles, Aug 28, 2021.

  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    There are a few IWM photo series, such as, for example...

    H13033 - Valentines on a North Country Moor, taken around 25/26d8m1941...in "the Whitby area"... although as noted on p20 of "None Had Lances" - "security was so tight that we had to cover up our Divisional sign on the vehicles".

    20210828_165937.jpg

    VALENTINES ON A NORTH COUNTRY MOOR
    H13031 - Object description
    Original wartime caption: Three Valentines about to go down a heather clad slope into the valley below.

    VALENTINES ON A NORTH COUNTRY MOOR
    H13032 - Object description
    Original wartime caption: Two Valentines in a picturesque moorland setting.

    VALENTINES ON A NORTH COUNTRY MOOR
    H13033 - Object description -
    Original wartime caption: Some of the Valentines operating in a picturesque moorland setting.

    Etc.

    VALENTINES ON A NORTH COUNTRY MOOR
    H13038 - Object description -
    Original wartime caption: Some of the Valentines in action during the exercise.

    VALENTINES ON A NORTH COUNTRY MOOR
    H13039 - etc. - Object description
    Original wartime caption: A Valentine tank being hauled aboard a transporter for conveyance. In this way the tracks are saved excessive wear on the roads.

    The images of the tank - T15975 are quite prominent online...
    t15975 valentine - Google Search

    As it has been used as an image reference for modellers...

    However there are also refs to a Canadian T15975 that "didn't leave Canada" - pictured - being used near Ontario in 1942... which is puzzling me.

    I think it would be quite hard, currently, to say if for certain these were the 24th Lancers' "Valentines on a North Country Moor" - although the 24th Lancers War Diary also references...

    24th L - War Diary -
    Whitby
    25/8/41 National Press reporters visited the Regiment on training.


    There aren't many of those pictures though, that show individuals well. There is this one... but even it is not particularly clear, plus it is hampered - in the original "zoomable version" by being orientated on its side - "portrait" rather than "landscape" etc.

    VALENTINES ON A NORTH COUNTRY MOOR

    H13037 - Object description -
    Original wartime caption: Communication is maintained by radio telephoning between each tank and headquarters.

    For further reference...

    Ian Kerr...

    TRAINING TANK DRIVERS

    H21482 - Object description
    Original wartime caption: The Squadron Leader (sic), Lt. Ian Kerr, who was a farmer from Midlothian, Scotland.

    Taken 15/16d7m1942 - just under a year later...


     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2021
  2. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    Fylingdales Moor near Whitby. I used to cycle out there in the 1950s to watch the Territorial Army at play, sorry exercise. Twice I witnessed parachute drops from USAF Flying Boxcars.

    Mike
     
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022 at 11:16 PM
    Chris C and CL1 like this.
  4. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022 at 5:03 AM
    Chris C and CL1 like this.
  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    H13047
    Object description
    Original wartime caption: Troops and one of the newspaper correspondents present interested in the interiors of some of the Valentines whichtook part in the exercise.

    large_H_013146_1.jpg

    It is possible to progress further through this series... after the Valentines on the Moor, and then some shots of the Valentines being loaded on a transporter (H13042 etc)
    there are some pictures of infantry on the Moors, then interestingly these appear to have been "C" Squadron Valentines - this one numbered.... T16098.

    The "brightness" of the "C" Squadron circle, as well as the shape of the tank crew's cap badge - suggests to me that these may be 24th Lancers.

    It is easier to see in the zoom (+) on the image at the link itself...
    A MOORLAND EXERCISE IN NORTHERN COMMAND

    20220119_052734.jpg

    (The 24th Lancers were replaced by 3RTR - (below) - when the 24L was assigned to the 8th Armoured Brigade)

    received_663127511705991.jpeg

    Also... same Valentine - T16098 is at...
    A MOORLAND EXERCISE IN NORTHERN COMMAND
    IWM H13048
    Object description
    Original wartime caption: Troops and newspaper correspondents enjoy a ride on Valentine tanks after the exercise.

    large_H_013048_1-1.jpg


    A MOORLAND EXERCISE IN NORTHERN COMMAND
    (It's possible to see a "C" Squadron roundel but no number on the link immediately above, though it is possibly the same T16098 tank)
    IWM H13049
    Object description
    Original wartime caption: Troops and newspaper correspondents enjoy a ride on Valentine tanks after the exercise.


    A MOORLAND EXERCISE IN NORTHERN COMMAND
    IWM H13050
    Object description
    Original wartime caption: Troops and newspaper correspondents enjoy a ride on Valentine tanks after the exercise.


    Again...It is easier to see further details in the zoom (+) on the image at the link itself... however...

    20220119_054634.jpg

    A MOORLAND EXERCISE IN NORTHERN COMMAND
    IWM H13051 (Similar)
    Object description
    Original wartime caption: Troops and newspaper correspondents clambering over Valentine tanks after the exercise.

    A MOORLAND EXERCISE IN NORTHERN COMMAND
    IWM H13052 (frustratingly ;-) no faces, as (almost) everyone's back is turned to the camera :-( )
    Object description
    Original wartime caption: Troops and newspaper correspondents clambering over Valentine tanks after the exercise.


    A MOORLAND EXERCISE IN NORTHERN COMMAND
    IWM H13053
    Object description
    Original wartime caption: Major Pilkington, M.C. (left) and other officers. 26d8m1941.

    One possibility, perhaps, for the officer in the middle (of the IWM picture IWM H13053) may be Edward (Ted) Ronald Pettit - 44155...

    20220119_061657.jpg

    Re. Major Edward (Ted) Ronald Pettit - 44155
    Born in Pembridge, Herefordshire, England on 26 Sep 1909 to Hubert Ronald PETTIT and Isabella "Rita" Margaret RYAN. Edward Ronald PETTIT married Margaret Godfrey ROLPH. He passed away on 4 Aug 1944 in Air Crash, India / Burma frontier.
    Edward Ronald Pettit - Ancestry.com
    London Gazette...
    Notices | All Notices | The Gazette...
    "C" Squadron of the 24th Lancers was at first commanded by Major Edward (Ted) R. Pettit (who was later killed on active service (NHLp25)).
    The 24th L War Diary has -
    19/1/42 Major.E.R.Pettit posted to 1st Lothian & Border Yeomanry.
    Nb. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2807594/pettit,-edward-ronald/
    LIEUTENANT COLONEL EDWARD RONALD PETTIT
    Service Number: 44155
    Regiment : Royal Armoured Corps - 9th Queen's Royal Lancers
    Date of Death : Died 04 August 1944
    Buried or commemorated at RANCHI WAR CEMETERY. 5. F. 2. India
    Country of Service : United Kingdom
    Awards : Military Cross
    Additional Info : Son of Colonel Hubert Ronald Pettit, D.L., J.P., and Isobel Margaret Pettit, J.P.; husband of Margaret Godfrey Pettit, of Castle Weir, Lyonshall, Herefordshire. Sp. Mem. "C.".
    Various further details...
    BEEBAR John 403252 | Aviation Heritage Museum
    24th Lancers - Roll of Honour
    It says 9th Queen's Royal Lancers on the grave ref. but that's not unusual, I think. As Robert Arbuthnot - for example was also listed as 9th Lancers on his grave whilst he was serving, in his case, with the 24th L.
    There is a ref. here: https://www.9th12thlancersmuseum.or...l-histories-1936-1945-bright??collection=1737
    That "Teddy Pettit was killed in an air-crash in India where he was serving as a Lieutenant Colonel"
    Location Information
    Ranchi is a town in the State of Jharkhand, some 419 kilometres. north-west of Calcutta. It can be reached by air from Delhi, Kolkata and Patna. The War Cemetery is on Old Hazari Bagh Road, about 1.5 kilometres from Ranchi railway station. It is situated next to the SPG Christian cemetery near Kantatoli Chwok. The Cemetery entrance being several metres off the road can easily be missed, and few auto rickshaw drivers know the way. Visitors should contact their hotel manager for guidance. There is no residential cartaker on site and the gate is locked between 5pm and 8 am. During working hours the cemetery register can be obtained from one of the gardeners.
    https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2085500/ranchi-war-cemetery/


    "C" Squadron of the 24th Lancers was then led by Major Richard (Dick) Percy Scott (of the Queens Bays) ...

    A History of the Queen's Bays (the 2nd Dragoon Guards) 1929 ... 1945






     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022 at 10:12 AM
  6. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. The Valentines....

    P29 of NHL. At the time that the - IWM H20822 - picture -

    THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM 1939-45

    Object description
    Valentine tanks of 29th Armoured Brigade, 11th Armoured Division in the village of Rottingdean in Sussex, 25 June 1942.

    ...was being taken the 24th L and perhaps the other regiments of their division were divesting themselves of their Valentines. After which the 24th L moved themselves to Rottingdean, albeit not until 1st August 1942...

    FB_IMG_1642576601585.jpg
     
    Chris C likes this.
  7. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian Patron

    Right, I'd forgotten, but there was a period when the army had a comparative surplus of Valentines compared to other tanks. In Operation Crusader I believe some units which were supposed to have cruiser tanks used Valentines instead.
     
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    This puzzled me...

    Ian Carmichael - Wikipedia

    "With the outbreak of the Second World War, his acting career was interrupted by service with the Royal Armoured Corps as a commissioned officer in the 22nd Dragoons. He served in the Normandy campaign, losing the tip of one finger in an accident with the turret hatch of a Valentine tank, and reached the rank of major before returning to civilian life in 1947."

    It's the matter of fact way that such details are introduced. So specific etc. i.e. it was a "Valentine" tank... and how easy it is to see that this was...

    Valentine tank - Wikipedia

    "Unusual"... and to find it frustrating somehow... ;-)

    "Northwest Europe
    By 1944, the Valentine had been almost replaced in front-line units of the European theatre by the Churchill tank (the Infantry Tank Mark IV) and the US-made M4 Sherman tank. A few were used for special purposes or as command vehicles for units equipped with the Archer self-propelled gun. The Royal artillery used the Valentine XI (with 75 mm gun) as an OP command tank until the end of the war.
    "

    Hard to explain. I don't dispute it with out further research but...

    22nd Dragoons - Wikipedia

    "All three regiments of the 30th Armoured Brigade were re-equipped with sherman crab flail tanks - M4 Sherman tanks modified by attaching a large jib, covered in chains, to the front of the vehicle."

    Presumably Ian Carmichael was on one of the "few" Valentines that "were used for special purposes or as command vehicles"

    Though... ;-) who knows with Wikipedia.... ;-) :)

    179582 Ian Gillett CARMICHAEL, MiD, 22 Dragoons

    And just how complicated every individual's life and Army career often just was...

    Edit - One reason I guess for wondering - is whether or not those T-numbers shown above on the "North Country Moor" - appear again - later with other Regiments... :) ;-)

    E.g.

    t15975 valentine - Google Search

    And ?

    03_MINA35123_L.jpeg-1.jpg

    Nothing yet - unfortunately...
    T27215 valentine - Google Search

    And similarly nothing "yet" with the other numbers as to what later "happened to them".
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022 at 4:29 PM
  9. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian Patron

    I think wikipedia is probably implying an order to things when it is just trying to sum up.

    To the very best of my knowledge, the Valentine wasn't used in armoured regiments in Northwest Europe. It was used as a command tank ("charger") in anti-tank regiments - I think possibly both those with Archers and M10s - and I think also in some field regiments.

    I think it is much more likely that he lost the tip of his finger earlier, while serving in the UK.

    As far as the T-numbers are concerned: Canadian made Valentines had four blocks of numbers... forgive me if I don't type them all out. The T number for that model kit is just wrong. That number is from the first order to Vickers Armstrong.
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Like this one...

    valentine2ussr01-ad9fdcdf6039d601c6bc1b71519e925a-e0b582011c4550f128712b854d0831d9.jpg

    Source - British Tank for Soviet Infantry

    Perhaps they ended up in Russia.

    ---- x ----- x ----

    Edit.... Tank Archives: Valentine With a Long Gun

    With...

    "Valentine With a Long Gun
    In the spring of 1943 the variety of British tanks sent to the USSR dropped radically. Matilda tanks were no longer sent, the Churchill nearly vanished from shipping manifests. The Valentine remained the only type of tank sent by the British in large numbers. Even though the British themselves nearly stopped using it by the spring of 1943, they were still in demand with the Red Army. This was especially true for the Valentine IX, the version with a 6-pounder cannon, which had to revert to the two-man turret.
    Bigger caliber, less crew
    It was clear that the 2-pounder gun was obsolete after the first clashes with German tanks in North Africa in 1941. Work on improving the firepower of British tanks began that same year. The 6-pounder (57 mm) gun, work on which began back in 1938, was the favourite. Mass production began only in 1942. The Mk.II (anti-tank) and Mk.III (tank) variants were shorter than the initial design. However, even the 43 caliber version was quite good. Even the thickening of the front armour of the PzIV to 80 mm did not fully protect it from the new cannon." Etc...
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022 at 3:30 PM
    Chris C likes this.

Share This Page