Varsity - crash site Horsa BF 473?

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by alberk, Dec 6, 2020.

  1. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Can anyone help me with this one?
    In the background are Americans advancing on LZ "P" - an the top right corner of the original photo one can clearly make out a pylon of the high voltage power line crossing the LZ from south to northwest. The casualty is British and so are the remains of the glider. Horsa burnt.jpg

    This gives you an idea of the location of the power line:
    Power line.jpg
     
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  2. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Here's the southern part of the power line crossing US LZ "N" and British LZ "P": power line south.jpg
     
  3. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

    I’d guess the Americans are walking South East headed for their area
     
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  4. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

    Could be close to the Kopenhof, there’s a aerial picture showing a glider clearly very very on fire. Big plume of smoke. The only other one I can think of is so where on LZ R which shows a big plume of smoke ( could be a building )
     
  5. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi Alex1975uk - do you have the photo with the glider burning?

    Regards
    Alex
     
  6. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

    I do but it’s too large a file to send here. I’ll email it.
     
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  7. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Horsa burnt.jpg

    I had a chance to visit the area and have a theory as to where it might be. On the photo one can see a pylon of the power line (top right corner). The power line is still there (the modern pylons are much larger, still large and small ones coexisting side by side in two parallel power lines. Nitrowski writes that the the Americans of 513 PIR used the power line as an orientation when they headed from LZ P towards their assigned objectives further south.

    Here's the area where I suspect the photo above was taken - I couldn't find the exact same angle (it was wet and the field was muddy yesterday), and, of course, this is just a suggestion. This is Westfeldweg:
    little house.jpg
    Westfeldweg is lined by the trees and roughly running from north (on the left of this picture) to the south (to the right).
    Below a view of Westfeldweg, looking south:
    Westfeldweg house.jpg


    power line south Kopie.jpg
    Plot of Landings charred glider.jpg
    I think we are talking about the glider indicated at the top of the area I encircled.
    This actually takes us back to the glider crash that killed Lt. Slade`s platoon of Devons - their Horsa was hit by AA fire from guns positioned in the area. Slade's glider is just to the left of the Horsa dot I marked here.
     
  8. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    The position of the charred glider would - according to my estimate and the map above - be 194474. As I am doing individual case researches for all 6 AB casualties during Operation Varsity I made a discovery - a soldier of the Devonshire Regiment who was killed on March 24th and buried in an isolated grave at 195473.
    I suppose that a connection is likely.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  9. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    I removed my speculation on the identity of the dead soldier seen in photo for the time being until we find the best way forward. There is the possibility of mistaken identity as well which would also be controversial.

    Regards ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  10. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hello Cee,
    thank you for this information. I will write a PM to you.
    Best,
    alberk
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  11. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Hi Alberk,

    Fantastic photos, I cant believe there are pictures of CN 278! Potentially very relevant to myself as from my dads research on the RASC gliders, there is a ~50/50 chance my grandfather was on it!

    Are you able to let me know the source for them (i.e. did they come from a museum, is the photographer known?, did the photographer arrive on the same glider?), there are a couple of things I have noticed in the photographs that I would like to look into a bit further if possible. (to start with and worth noting the Bren number looks to be 272695, this is only 1 number different from 272696 photographed in the village Operation Varsity ).

    BR,
    SH
     
  12. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi SH,

    I found the photos on the Pegasus Archive website:
    The Rhine Crossing

    There is a photo gallery where it says:

    The following photographs are from the collection of 134246 Captain Ronald Victor Pullin Adams, who served as EME/Tels at Headquarters, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, from May 1944 to July 1945.

    The Captain Ronald Adams Collection

    Best
    Alex
     
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  13. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    Could never figure out the location of CN 278.

    Pic_Adams-CN278 .jpg

    Regards ...
     
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  14. S Hayward

    S Hayward Well-Known Member

    Hi,

    Firstly, thanks for the link and details alberk!

    Using the source alberk provided I did also find this picture which might be related .... The Captain Ronald Adams Collection It shows similar ground conditions and a horizon with a church in the background (maybe Hamminkeln, maybe a read herring?), I'm not sure exactly how it fits in to be honest (from a glance I think it provides counter evidence to my ideas below as it feels more north / west DZ P than south due to the lack of trees but I do need to look into it further to 1) confirm it is also a Varsity Photograph, and 2) find its location).


    Current Thoughts
    This is a work in progress as we are working on trying to find all personnel and crews for each of the RASC gliders so please take this as a WIP list and not as confirmed fact...., however: We think , either CN 278 or CN 274 landed near to the RASC RV point.

    "the remaining glider crews were to RV at the hedge junction 193476"
    based on the RAF plot and assuming the same grid system, this location is about 500m from Kopenhof Farm, in the South East of DZ P. Because of the above, until seeing these photographs I thought the position of CN 278 would likely have to be one of the 3 Hamilcar's to the South East of DZ P, near the RV point, as this fits with both:

    "No casualties and a fairly good landing. Carrier struck by small arms fire as soon as it emerged from the Hamilcar but not damaged. Some flak experienced but not much damage to the glider."

    "One crew under comd Sjt Whittall landed very near the RV and were therefore first on the scene at approx 1100 hrs, and this party were the only men of the Coy present until at about 1300 hrs"

    Both from: Headquarters, Royal Army Service Corps

    WIP - List of RASC Gliders - Leaves very little options for who was on CN 278
    278 - May be Whittall's
    277 - Is Commanded by Lt. Roberts.
    276 - Were taken POW
    275 - Landed in the American Sector

    274 - Had its right wing destroyed on landing - but may be Whittall's
    273 - Landed near Margraten
    272 - We have an Aerial photograph of its landing position on DZ P which isn't near the RV point.
    271 - Crash Landing, possible but unlikely based on description.
    270 - "A good landing on DZ of 12 Para Bn" So not near the RV point.
    269 - Under command of Capt. S. Sutherland-Waite (so not near the RV point as SW's glider crew would have arrived earlier than they did)
    268 - Crashed in the UK
    267 - Under Command of Capt. S. Sutherland-Waite

    I may need to check I haven't got the RV point wrong, but assuming its correct, there is a good 50/50 chance 278 is Whittall's glider and is nearby. If not there should be a glider near the RV with missing right wing tip meaning 278 must be further away, but likely still close for its crew to be the 2nd to arrive at 1300.


    There are also interesting differences between the 2 photographs that are just things I've
    noticed and might help narrow the search.

    - Ground conditions differ with significantly more chunks of mud in the close up and what looks like a grass field in the wider angle.
    - A possible fence line in the background of the close up (not seen in the wider angle so presumably if present, is behind Photographer Captain Ronald Adams). This fence could explain the damage to the nose though.
    - Differences in the wheel strut positions (they look to be broken or possibly missing on the close up). In addition the wheel angle and how much it is embedded in the ground looks different with ~40% of the wheel buried in the close up.
    - Tail fin of adjacent glider not visible in the close up (possibly blocked by the Bren carrier)
    - Elevator is in the down position in the wide angle but not visible in the close up (angle may be restricting our view).
    - cockpit door closed in the wide angle shot but open in the close up (did somebody go back into the cockpit to open the nose cone and move the Elevator?).
    - Nose cone broken with glass on ground in the close up. What look to be 2 people (possibly the pilots Possibly RASC, Possibly others) sat by the nose (which looks from this angle to be un-broken).
    - 2 pieces of wood next to the wheel look visible in both pictures although one of them has moved.

    - Trailer looks to have a wheel base width similar to the carrier's treads. - Side note: Bob's incident with the minefield was due to the trailer having a smaller wheel base than the others in the convoy (otherwise the carrier would have set it off) so looking less likely he was on 278 (although sharing / swapping trailers is a possibility).


    As above this is WIP thoughts on possible locations and crew for CN 278 nothing here is fixed or confirmed yet! - Thought I would add this clarifier for any future readers.

    BR,
    SH
     
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  15. Aeronut

    Aeronut Junior Member

    The aircraft is tied down with a step ladder lying on the ground under the wing and those are loading ramps front left. This suggests to me that the photo was taken on an airfield in the UK.
     
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  16. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Great observation. I think you have a very good point, Aeronut!
     
  17. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    I would say it is Hamminkeln - a view from the southwest.
    Hamminkeln.png
    Right hand side of the pic: The small spire of the Catholic church to the left, the larger spire of the Protestant church on the right.
    Left hand side of the pic: the cylindrical buidling would be a former windmill, the "Rossmuehle" (see below)
    Rossmuehle former Windmill.png
    It is situated on Bislicher Straße, on the western edge of the village. The red spot below (roughly) marks the location of the windmill.
    Inked_12.5K_4205-4_HAMMINKELN_1945.jpg
     
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  18. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    Aeronut's thoughts on the Hamilcar photo are very interesting. I missed the photo of burnt-out glider completely. See possibility for general location in comparison below. No. 3 could be Roßmühle.

    Compare-.jpg

    Regards ...

    A cross post with alberk.
     
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  19. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi,

    Always wondered if Robert Capa caught a Hamilcar in the background of one of his Bislicher Str. photos, also as marked on the plot map (which I don't entirely trust). If so it's near the RV pointed out by SH above. Capa it seems had no qualms about photographing men KIA.

    Capa Varsity-5b.jpg Capa-Bislicher-crop-.jpg Plot of Glider Landings-crop.jpg

    Regards ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2023
  20. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    A burnt-out Hamilcar?

    Adams24-crop-4.jpg

    Regards ...
     

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