I am fiddling around with some writing, and as part of the research I am trying to find out what the WE would have been for a heavy coastal battery of the RA equipped with 9.2" guns. If there is such a thing as a separate 'independent heavy battery' establishment with integral allotment of personnel normally at regimental level then that would be even better. As a special bonus, if anyone can find a WE for a Canadian battery equipped with US 10 Inch guns (M1888 series given to the Canucks) then you will win a gold star. Also, does anyone know what exactly an RA 'defence regiment' was and how it differed from a standard heavy or coast regiment? A WE for one or for a battery thereof would also be super. Thanks, all.
I don't have those WEs, but I suspect fellow forum member Aixman will have the RA ones (not sure about the RCA). If you can offer a timeframe I can have a look for the most likely candidates in the indices and their ref no/location in the WO24 series, then perhaps you can send him a PM? He's been most gracious in sharing his spoils before so hopefully it wouldn't be an intrusion. I think I've seen refs to RA Defence Regts in the immediate post-Dunkirk period. Gary
Thanks, Gary. As to the time period, 1940 (post Dunkirk)-1941 is best. I am working on something covering that period, but 1939-40 or even 1942 will do if that is all you can find.
Here are a few... WO24/938 (ACI Jul-Dec 1940) Ref V/1931/66B/1, HQ of a Defence Regt, RA, page 784 Ref V/1931/79/1, Home Defence Bty, RA (Mob), page 785 Rev V/1931/79A/1, Home Defence Bty, RA (Static) (4-in guns), page 786 Ref V/1931/79B/1, Home Defence Bty, RA (Static) (6-pr guns), page 787 Ref VII/1931/72A1, Special Coast Bty, RA (4-gun 5.5-inch) page 854 Ref VII/71A/1, Special Coast Bty, RA (various calibres), page 546 Nothing specifically mentions 9.2-in calibre anywhere. I'll have a look through 1941 later, see if anything fits the bill. Gary
WO24/941 (ACI Oct-Dec 1941) Ref VII/71A/2, Special Coast Bty, RA, page 995 WO24/943 (ACI Jan-Jun 1942) Ref VII/72A/2, Special Coast Bty, RA (4 gun, 5.5-inch), page 251 For the back end of 1942 there are a shedload of WEs for Special Coast Arty Regts, RA, with three types of RHQ (Class A-C) and five types of Bty (Class A-E), pages 1055-1062 inclusive in WO24/945. I've no idea what calibre weapons they had, or how they fitted together. I don't know if those even cover the units you're looking at, fingers crossed they might be of use. Gary
Thanks enormously, Gary. To explain: I am looking at a British or Canadian battery handling the US M1888 10 inch gun on disappearing carriage. A few of these old pieces were handed over to the British and Commonwealth by the US Army post-Dunkirk. US manuals give the gun detachment establishment. As the piece was similar in bore to the 9.2", I imagine that RA and RCA coastal artillery units could adapt their own WEs to handle the 10 inch without too much trouble. It is the higher battery establishment that I am after--HQ, service and support elements, any attached personnel from other corps like RAOC, RAMC, RASC, and REME, etc. From what little I can learn, Defence Regts RA seem to have handled medium and light pieces in a broader coast defense role, possibly including infantry elements. I don't really know for certain.
Thank you Gary, that helps narrowing down the load of WEs. Unfortunately, none seems to fit the calibre TTH looks for. Just to make this clear, I added the full titles or subtitles where available For the first two you mentioned exist earlier predecessors which I added. VII/71A Version 1 published in A.C.Is. 09.11.1940 (no effective date as usual then). Version 2 published in A.C.Is. 05.11.1941 (effective 08.10.1941) VII/71A/1 Special Coast Battery, Royal Artillery (6-inch, 5.5-inch, 4.7-inch and 4-inch guns) VII/71A/2 Special Coast Battery, RA, (6-inch, 5.5-inch, 4.7-inch and 4-inch guns) VII/72A Version 1 published in A.C.Is. 09.11.1940 (no effective date as usual then). Version 2 published in A.C.Is. 18.09.1942 (effective 22.12.1941) VII/72A/1 Special Coast Battery, RA (4 gun, 5.5-inch) VII/72A/2 Special Coast Battery, RA (4 gun, 5.5-inch) The second batch of 8 WEs: All War Establishments were published in A.C.Is. 28.10.1942 and were effective 01.11.1942. As far as I am aware, they were neither renumbered nor redesignated nor cancelled until the end of 1945. The Headquarters: VII/285/1 Headquarters, Special Coast Regiment, R.A. (Class "A") (Consisting of seven or more special coast batteries, R.A.) VII/286/1 Headquarters, Special Coast Regiment, R.A. (Class "B") (Consisting of five or six special coast batteries, R.A.) VII/287/1 Headquarters, Special Coast Regiment, R.A. (Class "C") (Consisting of two, three or four special coast batteries, R.A.) The Batteries: VII/288/1 A Special Coast Battery, R.A. (Class "A") (Consisting of 2 guns (6-inch, 5.5-inch or 138 mm.) and 2 searchlights.) VII/289/1 A Special Coast Battery, R.A. (Class "B") (Consisting of 2 guns (4-inch, 4.7-inch or 75 mm.) and 2 searchlights.) VII/290/1 A Special Coast Battery, R.A. (Class "C") (Consisting of 2 guns (6-inch, 5.5-inch or 138 mm.) and 2 searchlights.) VII/291/1 A Special Coast Battery, R.A. (Class "D") (Consisting of 2 guns (4-inch, 4.7-inch or 75 mm.) and 2 searchlights.) VII/292/1 A Special Coast Battery, R.A. (Class "E") (Consisting of 2 guns and 2 searchlights) For this last one there is additional personnel given for 3 and 4 gun batteries, but no mention of guns or calibre. With a grand total of 31 personnel including attached I doubt a larger calibre. Aixman
TTH Does "on disappearing carriage" probably mean "on railway mountings" (retracted into a tunnel)? Searching just for "Special Coast" brings another Battery from Gary's batch, similar to Class "E" and not suitable. (Class "F", VII/279/1).and the Headquarters for the first two batteries mentioned (VII/70A/1).That's all. Regarding the multitude of British WEs (sorry, no Canadians available, sadly), I would be rather sure the special calibre would have had a WE of its own. But searching for "10 inch", "10-inch" or "10''" doesn't bring matches. Supposed your assumption of using a WE for the similar 9.2 inch calibre is right, this search only results in three volume III hits, volume III itself seeming unsuitable for anything “coast” III/11A/1 A Heavy Regiment, R.A. (Field Army) (6-inch guns and 9.2-inch howitzers) Consisting of - Regimental headquarters; 1 battery of 4 6-inch guns and 3 batteries, each of 4 9,2-inch howitzers, published in A.C.Is. 11.10.1939, so before Dunkirk. III/11C/1 Super Heavy Battery, R.A. (Consisting of headquarters and two sections each containing one 9.2-inch guns on railway mountings), published in A.C.Is. 11.10.1939, so before Dunkirk. III/316/1 A Super Heavy Battery, R.A. (Two 12-inch howitzers, R.T.M., with two 9.2-inch guns, R.T.M. as alternative weapons) , published in A.C.Is. 19.04.1944, so much too late. Well, and searching for “defense” results in literally hundreds of - mostly false - hits …- remaining for another day’s work. Aixman
I find that eight 10" guns were supplied to Canada by the US in 1940. None to UK. All were M1888 MI or MII. Two were on Carriage Disappearing M1894 and were mounted at Fort Cape Spear Newfoundland. Six were on Carriage Barbette M1893 and were declared obsolete and put in store before being sent to Canada. They were mounted two each at Fort McNutt at Shelburne, Fort Prevel at Gaspe and Philips Bay Newfoundland. Disappearing Carriage was a hydraulic system which raised the gun over the parapet to fire and then lowered it again. Mike
Just had a look at the History of Coast Artillery in the British Army and there's no mention of them in there despite a page or so on the subject of the post-Dunkirk emergency batteries.
Thanks loads for you hard work, much more than I asked for. People here are super helpful. As to the caliber, 9.2" would do if it can be found as that would be pretty close to the US 10 Inch. I am surprised that the 9.2" battery WE is so elusive, as that was a standard coast defense piece with many examples deployed worldwide. That 138mm is NOT a misprint. When the obsolete French battleship Courbet was interned in Britain in 1940 she was stripped of her 138mm secondary guns, which were then placed in coast defense mounts. The Home Guard manned a few of them.
Yes, I have data on the guns and their deployment in Canada and Newfoundland by the RCA. You can get the manual for the 10 inch (FM 4-65) online. I was asking for an RA WE for the equivalent 9.2" because I just figured it would be easier to find than anything for the RCA.
Last few ones I can find that might perhaps just possibly fit...maybe; V/1931/91/1 - Transportation Section, Special Super Heavy Guns on railway mountings - WO24/938, page 679 III/1931/11F/1 - Super Heavy Bty, RA - WO24/938, page 766 III/1931/11G/1 - HQ, Super Heavy Regt, RA - WO24/938, page 767 III/1931/14E/1 - Transportation HQ, RE (?) Railway Mounted Super Heavy Btys - WO24/938, page 881 V/1931/79D/1 - Super Heavy Bty, RA - WO24/938, page 898 All latter half of 1940, probably last quarter of, so in the right timeframe. Given the WE refs I suspect 79D/1 may have used 66B/1 as an RHQ, the WE should state the relevant document. Whether the Transportation related WEs have any connection I don't know, I've always concentrated on the Field Force end of things. Gary
Forgot to add, I had a quick check using the Canadian archives catalogue and the only thing that came up for 10-inch referred to much older weapons (1800s, WW1), while 10-in brought up too many items to search through. M1888 got zero. Gary
To exclude some more mentioned in post #14: V/1931/91/1 - Transportation Section, Special Super Heavy Guns on railway mountings => "... designed to operate two trains." III/1931/11F/1 - Super Heavy Bty, RA => "(Armed with four 6-inch guns on railway mountings)" III/1931/11G/1 - HQ, Super Heavy Regt, RA => "(Designed to command 3 or more super heavy batteries, R.A.)" - most probably 11G III/1931/14E/1 - Transportation HQ, RE (?) Railway Mounted Super Heavy Btys => railway mounted, and yes "R.E." V/1931/79D/1 - Super Heavy Bty, RA => "(Consisting of one 18-inch howitzer on railway mounting)" and V/1931/66B/1 - Headquarters of a Defence Regiment, R.A. => no further remarks on purpose, but grand total of only 13 men. Aixman
