War Records - help with abbreviations & interpretation of service records

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by bofors, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi everyone

    Just a quick question. About 11 years ago I wrote to the MOD to get my Father's service records. Here in Australia when you wrote they photocopied all the records and sent them to you. Now they are even online and cost nothing for WW1 and $16.50 for online access to WW2. So you can see everything written about the person and what the did in colour as well! And copy them to your computer or print out.
    Imagine my disappointment to get 2 A4 pages back with a summary of which regiment he was in at what time and some lines on description and medals. I did not agree with everything they said too, but that is for another thread. Do they still do the same thing or arre they now copying the whole lot of documents. I am not wasting another 25 pounds!

    Any comments appreciated

    thanks

    Robert

    :(
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I think a few people have been caught out like that.
    They have had to ask for the original documents to be copied & not just a typed summary.
    A few members on here have posted their relatives records on here for all to see.
    It's worth sending off again.

    For an example of what you can get , see Richard's post here.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/227069-post112.html
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Unfortuantely (IMO) this country seems to be some what behind in respects to all things to do with past military service.

    Trouble with this country if someone sniffs a pound they will exploit it. Public records belong to the public so they should be free in my book - They would be if I was Prime Minister !

    PS It's £30 now.....See what I mean ;)
     
  4. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Robert

    I'd go along with what others have said on the subject.

    When I received my own records there were no less than 17 sheets of info similar to Richard's records.

    It's worthwhile getting back to the office that sent you the two sheets and saying that you cannot believe those are the only records they hold.

    Good luck !

    Ron
     
  5. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Robert,
    I go along with the other members commets. It appears that you may have been "Short changed".
    A little complaining never goes amiss.

    Best of luck.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  6. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    [FONT=&quot]Forms I received for my father’s army service (1939-46) were:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Army Forms:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]E501. TA Attestation (Original & Duplicate)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]B102. Record Card[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]B103. Service and Casualty Form[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]B200B. Statement of Services[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]B199A. Record of Service (Officers)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Industry Group & Occupational Classification Questionaire[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Maybe quoting form numbers will help with records office.[/FONT]
     
  7. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi and thanks everyone

    You have just fired me up again
    I will take all of your advice and send off a new request.
    Maybe they wont charge me?? Ha
    Appreciate your advice

    regards

    Robert
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Maybe they wont charge me?? Ha




    Whats that saying about pigs and flying Robert ? ;)
     
  9. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I cannot remember the persons name that I was researching on the Australian NAA however there were 175? pages (the biggest I had seen).

    Luckily also it was digitised and I could print all of it off for free (If I wanted). Some were the same copies however the entire file was photocopied.

    All family, friends and RAAF research has cost me $0.

    You now have to pay for digitisation however the cost is minimal and all digitised previously have not been removed.
     
  10. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi

    Yes it is a pity that British records were not like here, then I would have no hassles, even if I had to pay a small fee to download them!!

    thanks

    Robert
     
  11. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi everyone

    Will post this to get your comments and I will add my other thoughts later

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This is what they sent me.
    I had asked a heap of questions and they answered some and some not to my likeing!


    thanks

    Robert
     
  12. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Robert

    May I offer a word of advice ?

    First of all have a look at this small piece I wrote on the BBC site about receiving my records back in 2003. BBC - WW2 People's War - Getting your Army Records

    Then have a look (below) at the letter that accompanied the package that I received at the time. I have erased my home address for obvious reasons.

    I repeat that there were no less than 17 individual sheets of paper and each sheet was of immense value as it confirmed dates of individual "happenings" for me.

    I urge you not to settle for second best.

    In your letter to the Archives stress that you have been given solid examples of the type of records that are available and say that you hope the matter can be resolved without having to raise it with your member of Parliament :)

    Good luck !

    Ron

    ps
    Did I catch something on one of your postings about a possible mention in despatches ? If I am correct, have a look at this thread:
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/research-material/14404-honour-armies-honours-awards-british-dominion-armies-during-ww2.html#post153757
    It details the help I got from fellow members concerning the tracing of details about the award of the MM to my former tank commander.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Hello

    I have been waiting for 2.5 months ( it is £30 and my cheque was cashed within a few days of sending in July 09)
    I received a letter stating that they are busy and I would receive details in due course.
    I will share all info when I receive it

    regards
    Clive
     
  14. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi Clive

    Yes will be interested to see how it goes and what you get.

    regards

    Robert
     
  15. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi all

    Will post this reply from Medal Department for your comments as well and add my comments - see attachments

    When Dad first moved to Australia in the late 50's he moved around a fair bit looking for jobs. It is my understanding that he was in North Queensland near Innisfail cutting cane and was living in a hotel room. Someone broke in and stole all his medals, documents etc. My Mother told me this as a kid. Dad never talked about his war experiences then. After I moved out he joined the RSL in the early 90's and must have bought himself a set of medals. He made a case for them but never told me about it (although my sister knew) I found out after he died. In it was the medals mentioned in the letter but also a Defence medal. Thses were all swing mounted together. Also in it was a figure 8 (for 8th army I presume and a MID but neither were attached to the medals. He also had a RA cap badge and a RS badge. The MOD say in the letter he is not eligible for both. My questions are
    1. Why is he not entitled to the Defence medal- what are Bofors guns for if not defence!!! I have read the entitlement requirements and the only thing I dont understand is non-operational area. I would appreciate your views. On looking in ebay and medal books it seems that most RA got it so why not him?
    2 MID - have looked in Gazettes and NA and cant find anything. If, as they say one was written but not approved, then is there any way I can find out and get a copy of that document?
    3 Wounded- yes he was , we have all seen the bullet hole scars. There was one in the right flank above his hip and in the right calf. Both would have just passed through muscle so would not have been invalided for long. I am wondering if this matches with MID as I read a story of a RA gunner in Tobruk who was wounded but still operated his gun and did get a MID. My Aunt remembers bugging him until he told her it happened in Italy.

    The Dunkirk thing is my qestion on what someone told me that he was there. But if he was they maybe he was on one of the small boats that went to help. I will probably mever know.

    Appreciate any help/advice

    regards

    Robert
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi all

    Will post this reply from Medal Department for your comments as well and add my comments - see attachments

    When Dad first moved to Australia in the late 50's he moved around a fair bit looking for jobs. It is my understanding that he was in North Queensland near Innisfail cutting cane and was living in a hotel room. Someone broke in and stole all his medals, documents etc. My Mother told me this as a kid. Dad never talked about his war experiences then. After I moved out he joined the RSL in the early 90's and must have bought himself a set of medals. He made a case for them but never told me about it (although my sister knew) I found out after he died. In it was the medals mentioned in the letter but also a Defence medal. Thses were all swing mounted together. Also in it was a figure 8 (for 8th army I presume and a MID but neither were attached to the medals. He also had a RA cap badge and a RS badge. The MOD say in the letter he is not eligible for both. My questions are
    1. Why is he not entitled to the Defence medal- what are Bofors guns for if not defence!!! I have read the entitlement requirements and the only thing I dont understand is non-operational area. I would appreciate your views. On looking in ebay and medal books it seems that most RA got it so why not him?
    2 MID - have looked in Gazettes and NA and cant find anything. If, as they say one was written but not approved, then is there any way I can find out and get a copy of that document?
    3 Wounded- yes he was , we have all seen the bullet hole scars. There was one in the right flank above his hip and in the right calf. Both would have just passed through muscle so would not have been invalided for long. I am wondering if this matches with MID as I read a story of a RA gunner in Tobruk who was wounded but still operated his gun and did get a MID. My Aunt remembers bugging him until he told her it happened in Italy.

    The Dunkirk thing is my qestion on what someone told me that he was there. But if he was they maybe he was on one of the small boats that went to help. I will probably mever know.

    Appreciate any help/advice

    regards

    Robert


    Hi Robert
    First of all have a look at these two links where the forum have previously touched on your sort of problem:
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/great-britain/6146-defence-medal.html
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/19934-why-no-1940-star-medal.html#post215519

    I also remember writing these comments on a similar subject:

    I'm very grateful that I kept my own Diaries and personal records and backed them up by getting a copy of my own Army Records, particularly after what happened the other night.
    I was watching a delightful documentary about the life of a Chelsea Pensioner and was dismayed to see one of the Pensioners being told by a jumped up Staff Sergeant that he was not entitled to wear the Defence Medal because "he had not been in Civil Defence for the statuary three years".
    The Pensioner in question was absolutely devastated and said he felt like giving back all his medals as he had been in Heavy Rescue for many years and had always been told that he was qualified to wear that particular decoration.
    After the program it set me thinking as to whether or not I was offically entitled to wear the medal, but I vaguely remembered that it had come with all my others gongs in 1948.
    Prior to seeing the TV program, I had never queried my own entitlement, as I had registered for Civil Defence in September 1939 (at the age of 16), had fire-watched in London during the blitz and was a full ARP warden in Houghton Regis in 1942, right up to October 1st when I was called up.
    I therefore considered that I was covered by the "three years" requirement.
    I could not, however, remember filling in any forms that gave my Civil Defence background although this may have been the case.
    Anyway, I dashed to my Army Records and, I admit, to my relief, saw that whilst I was in the CMF area I was awarded the Defence Medal as per Part II Order 2950/46. Phew !

     

    If I am right in thinking that you are looking for comment on the discrepancies between your Dad's version of events and the Army's I ask you to consider the following. If any comment I make is not to your liking please forgive me but in some respects I am acting as a Devil's advocate

    The minimum that should be in his records about any treatment of a wound would have been an entry showing when he was admitted to either a Field Ambulance unit or/and an enumerated General Hospital. Is it posible that the wounds were of a non-miltary type and therfore never treated by the Army and therefore no records?

    As an example, during my time at Cassino I succumbed to a bad case of Impetigo.
    It was only on seeing my own records that I was able to fix a date as to when I was treated.

    I am fascinated by the statement you received from the Ministry saying that had he been wounded in a Theatre of Operations he would have automatically received a campaign medal, this is the first time I have seen this in print.

    Finally, I would take heart from the Ministry's admission that your Dad may have been recommended for an award but that it may not have been ratified. I also see that the final remark was that they were sorry not to have given you good news...... they said exactly the same thing to me !!!!!

    Best regards

    Ron
     
  17. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi Ron

    thanks for you reply and I appreciate your comments. The wounds did look like a bullet had gone through so I presume war related but stand to be corrected. Is there any records other than his own, ie hospital, war diaries, officers diaries that may confirm it.?
    Also with MIC is there any forms which may have it written on? Especially that I can accesss?

    With the Defence medal I note below

    The table below shows the qualifying time required depending on the area served.
    Area
    Time required
    UK 1080 days
    Overseas non-operational 360 days
    Overseas non-operational in an area deemed to be closely threatened or subject to air attack
    180 days
    The last sentence draws my attention as at airfields etc they would have been "closely threatened or subject to air attack" and I still dont understand what non-operational means if anyone can clarify?
    I will write back to MOD but I want to ensure I have some valid points to question them on so any guidance is appreciated even if not what I want!


    regards

    Robert
     
  18. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Hello Robert

    I did request as much info as they have on record which includes his sign up papers
    I have just received a raft of paperwork back from Glasgow copies in a3 and a4.
    I am trying to decipher the handwritting which will take a bit of time.
    out of interest he had 3 years 278 days? in uk before 21/6/44
    then 1 year 155 days in NWE
    finally 114 days in uk
    total 5 years 212 days

    regards
    Clive
     
  19. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi Clive

    Well done
    I think they are always busy - I went back over my old correspondence and they said the same. Pity they did not send me what you got, will try again.

    regards

    Robert
     
  20. bofors

    bofors Senior Member

    Hi all

    Can someone explain the Territorial Army part of Dad's records. Was he in something before he joined up?

    thanks

    Robert
     

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