Q-ships are, if u don't know, battleships disguised as merchant ships. What if the Royal Navy or the U.S. navy would have used them in WWII? Post opinions.
Juanra As I am sure you know, Q-ships were used in world war one. At that time, there was no sonar [ASDIC] to detect submarines and no depth-charges to attack submarines. These things did not come along until near the end of WW1. So the Q-ship had to wait to be attacked, and the crew had to stay aboard a ship that had been damaged by a torpedo and hope that the submarine would surface and approach closely enough for them to open fire. Because a submarine is low in water it was a more difficult target to hit than the ship, so the Q-ship gunners were at a disadvantage. Almost certainly the ship would sink as well as the submarine (and often the submarine would get away). Therefore it was a very inefficient and dangerous way of sinking submarines and this was why Q-ships were not used in WW2: better methods were available [eg. aircraft]. If they had used them, it would not have made much difference to the numbers of submarines sunk. Also submarines rarely came to the surface and attacked with guns in WW2, unlike WW1, so the Q-ships could not have hit them. And merchant ships usually travelled in convoys right from the start of WW2, unlike WW1, so a merchant ship by itself would have made the U-boat skipper suspicious. At the moment, I am reading "My Mystery Ships", by Rear-Admiral Gordon Campbell VC, DSO**, who was the most successful Q-ships commander of WW1. More VCs were awarded to Q-ship (or Mystery Ship, or decoy ship) crews than any other branch of the Royal Navy. They were very brave men, but even Campbell admits that the loss rate was virtually one ship for one U-boat. I believe he tried to set up a Q-ship scheme at the start of WW2, but the Government would not back him. Adrian
The nearest thing to "Q-Ships" in WW2 were the disguised merchant raiders used by the Axis. The Italian and Japanese disguised raiders came to nought, but the German raiders performed some legendary feats before they were brought to book. Atlantis sank 22 ships. Pinguin mined Australian ports and wiped out the Norwegian Antarctic whaling fleet. Orion mined New Zealand ports. Kormoran sank the cruiser HMAS Sydney, while being sunk herself. Stier fought with USS Stephen Hopkins, and both sank each other -- the only USN-KM surface battle of the war. Michel hauled around an E-Boat. Komet sailed over the north coast of Russia to the Pacific, joined Orion in the Pacific in 1940, shelled the island of Nauru (twice), sailed down to Antarctica, and made it home. In so doing, she hit the "furthest north" and "furthest south" of the German war machine in one cruise.
Komet sailed over the north coast of Russia to the Pacific, amazing! - we're talking about the North-East passage here - I can't remember who sailed it first but Komet must have been a very early contender. Adrian
Originally posted by adrian roberts@May 3 2005, 07:10 PM Komet sailed over the north coast of Russia to the Pacific, amazing! - we're talking about the North-East passage here - I can't remember who sailed it first but Komet must have been a very early contender. Adrian [post=33935]Quoted post[/post] The Russians had done it already with icebreakers. In fact, for a portion of the voyage, Russian icebreakers preceded the Komet. Then Stalin, in his usual paranoia, turned them around, and Komet had to finish that chore alone. Her boss was an Admiral, Kurt Eyssen.
But if a "merchant" convoy sailed armed with depth charges, asdic, and Huff-Duff, the U-Boat might have been less careful and vulnerable.
Juanra But if a "merchant" convoy sailed armed with depth charges, asdic, and Huff-Duff, the U-Boat might have been less careful and vulnerable. This is true, but it would have been difficult and expensive to fit large numbers of merchant ships with all this equipment; the Huff-Duff aerials would have been difficult to disguise, and you couldn't have merchant ships carrying valuable cargo leaving the convoy to chase U-boats. Also the Merchant Navy crews wouldn't have the skill to operate this equipment, and there wouldn't have been enough RN personnel to go round. Far better to leave the fighting to the escorts. Having said that, many merchant ships were fitted with guns, 4-inch or 6-inch, which were not hidden, and manned by RN personnel. These were the DEMS gunners [Defence Equipped Merchant Ships - not to be confused with Armed Merchant Cruisers which were armed merchant ships operated by the Royal Navy, such as HMS Jervis Bay]. The guns on a DEMS ship were primarily for anti-aircraft use, but no doubt forced U-boats to attack underwater and expend valuable torpedoes. Adrian
That's odd, my husband always said that he spent the first two/three years of WW11 on a Q-ship - HMS Botlea. They roamed the Atlantic earning danger money but never saw an angry shot fired, to his great frustration. So can someone tell me what Botlea was if it wasn't a Q-ship?
Liz As I said in my previous post, there were some attempts to start Q-ship operations in WW2, and WW1 Q-ship hero Gordon Campbell played a lead role in this. The WW2 vessels certainly did not have anything like the success rate of the WW1 vessels, neither did they have the backing if of the Admiraly in WW2. I tried looking up 'Botlea' on www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk, but no luck. Possibly name was slightly wrong; if your husband did serve in a Q-ship in WW2 I would be a little surprised that it was for three years Adrian
Thanks for the reply, Adrian, but yes, it WAS HMS BOTLEA - my late husband's hat band(?!) is somewhere around and the name is written several times in his photo album. The album's fly-leaf gives his name J.C.Mardel Sig. T.O. R.N.V.R. and '4 Mess HMS BOTLEA Oct 1939 - August 1941, HMS QUEEN OF BERMUDA Aug 26 - Sept 27 1941, s/s CAPETOWN CASTLE Sept 27 - Oct 18 1941.' So he was on board for one year and 10 months - not as long as I said. Photos with dates show that they called at Gibralter Mar '40 - Halifax Nova Scotia - Freetown Sierra Leone - Bermuda June/July '40 - UK for leave Sept '40 - then to Simonstown SA Jan '41 - then Ceylon - Aden - Perim Straits March - July '41 - Berbera - Bombay - Durban. From there he seems to have gone on the QUEEN OF BERMUDA to the South Atlantic then home on the S/S CAPETOWN CASTLE for officer training. He saw lots of the world but NO action on his Q-ship, which didn’t suit him at all! I have a photo of HMS BOTLEA if it would be of interest. I thought there was a place for pictures on this site but I can't find it!
Liz The website I mentioned is not exhaustive, so I'll have to look up HMS Botlea in "Jane's Warships of WW11", or Conways equivalent. So far as I know these are in book form not on-line so I'll have to go to the library. Not that I doubt what you say, but I would be interested! The easiest way of getting a photo onto this site is by attaching it to a post like this - use 'Add Reply' not 'Fast Reply'. You'll need to scan it and upload the image to your PC [sorry if I'm telling you the obvious!] Adrian
Thanks for the posting instructions - got it! Attached (I hope!) is the rather hazy picture of HMS Botlea. Don't know the exact date. There are about 60 (probably illegal and equally hazy!) pictures of other ships in his album, taken from Botlea. I'm equally interested to know what you can find about this ship! - Liz View attachment 747
Adrian Have just seen the JERVIS BAY mentioned. The attached pic. is also in the album, taken on April 30th in Bermuda. And there's another one of BOTLEA alongside in the dockyard, Bermuda in April '40 if this helps! Incidentally, the other day I thought I'd added a request on this board asking if anyone could answer a question for me. I'm hoping to find the coordinates of the spot where the casualties from the bombing of HMS ILLUSTRIOUS (including my husband's brother) were buried at sea in Jan '41. It was somewhere between Malta and Filfla apparently. I thought the message appeared then it evapourated! Perhaps I did something wrong - had you seen it? Liz View attachment 748 View attachment 750
Liz These are very fine pictures; if they haven't been published before then I'm sure someone would be interested in them. "Ships Monthly" or "Sea Breezes" magazine for instance may well pay to publish them. [Both of these are available in WHSmith so you can get the addresses from them] The structure on the poop of Botlea almost certainly contained one of the hidden guns - WW1 Q-ships often had this feature so U-boat commanders may have been wise to it. If I find any more about her I will let you know, but I may take a while. When I said "Jane's Warships of WW11", I meant "Jane's Fighting Ships of WW11". I'm afraid I didn't see a topic on HMS Illustrious. Did you post it in this, War at Sea, section? - I usually keep an eye on this section. Top tip: when you have typed a long post, before you actually post it to the forum, copy and paste it onto a word document and save it first, then you can repost it without having to type it all over again. I learnt that the hard way! Adrian
Adrian Thanks for the suggestions - about both publishing photographs and submitting posts. Sorry to be a pain but could you suggest where I should re-submit the question I asked about in my last message - on this site or is there another more suitable one? Liz
Adrian Has a session with ‘Janes Fighting Ships of WW11’ today in the local library and couldn’t find a squeak about HMS Botlea! HOWEVER, when I googled it I found that an Australian naval officer has written a paper and booklet(?) about his experiences on Botlea during the war for the Naval Historical Society of Australia . Now I know that it was one of six small tramp cargo ships converted to Q ships at the start of WW11. Details of the publications below:- 1. Q Ships In WW II: Service in HMS Botlea Downes, LCDR A.M. Bookseller: Antheil Booksellers(North Bellmore, NY, U.S.A.) [Shipping Rates & Speeds] Price: US$ 9.00 [Convert Currency] Book Description: Monography No. 53. 13 unbound pages. Ill. Maps. New. Naval Historical Soc. of Australia, 1997. Bookseller Inventory #wnShon9D64[Search this Seller's Books] [Browse this Seller's Books] [Ask Bookseller a Question] 2. Q' SHIPS IN WORLD WAR II. Monograph Number 153. AND SERVICE IN HMS BOTLEA Downes, Captain A. M. RD. RANR(S) (Rtd) Lecture to the Society, April 1996. Bookseller: All At Sea Books(Morisset, NSW, Australia) [Shipping Rates & Speeds] Price: US$ 26.67 [Convert Currency] Book Description: The Naval Historical Society of Australia. Garden Island NSW. During WWII the Royal Navy took six small tramp cargo ships fitting them out with concealed deck guns, depth charge racks and concealed torpedo tubes. This is the story of one of them. Stapled photocopy of a transcript submitted to the Society 1996. 16pp. 295 mm x 210 mm. Bookseller Inventory #17892[/FONT] Botlea seems to have had a more exciting time after Joe left it in Bombay in July ’41 judging by this extract from a review by Shane Jenkins of the book ‘The Death of HMAS Sydney’ by Wesley Olsen. ‘Taking a step back, the author then describes what he terms "the tonnage war". This chapter details the losses of merchant marine vessels and measures taken to claw back capacity. One of the means was by taking "Prize Vessels" and putting them in service, in fact an Admiralty Order stated that "No enemy merchant captured should be sunk, unless the strongest military reasons exist". He goes on to detail the procedures in capturing enemy vessels, including anti scuttling measures and the risks involved to the warship in doing so if the vessel turned out to be a raider. Describing several actions where warships intercepted raiders and auxillary vessels and the dangers involved. This includes how HMS Neptune (a sister ship to Sydney) stopped the Q-Ship HMS Botlea disguised as RFA Lambridge and boarded her while lying stopped several hundred yards - a sitting target for the Botlea if she were so inclined. Neptune left without knowing who she really was and the danger Neptune was in. The CO of the Botlea sent a scathing report to the Admiralty and whilst Neptune's CO received a roasting, the report of the encounter was never circulated due to the secret nature of the Q-Ships. He also covers the new signals intoduced for ID purposes”. Sorry, that’s a bit long-winded. I’d be interested to hear anything further of a ship that’s been a name in the background of our lives ever since I first met Joe! Liz
Liz That's quite a result you obtained in your research! It goes to show how powerful a tool the internet is. could you suggest where I should re-submit the question I asked about in my last message - on this site or is there another more suitable one? I would have thought this site would be as good as any; either this thread or the 'general' one. It is quite a specialised question though. I wonder if the Commonwealth War Graves Commission would know, or at least would know who to ask. Or perhaps the Royal Navy Archives department. HMAS Sydney was sunk with all hands by the Kormoran, to all intents and purposes a German Q-ship - she approached too closely. (There are conspiracy theories about alternative explanations). Neptune was sunk in a minefield in the Med; there was just one survivor, Norman Walton, who died last month. Adrian
Adrian Thanks for the added info. - v interesting. Yes, I thought of the CWGC yesterday and sent off a message. Yup, this www is fantastic isn't it! Trouble is it's so darned addictive - haven't had breakfast yet and have heard the milkman 3 times this week, at the wrong end of the night! Liz
Trouble is it's so darned addictive - haven't had breakfast yet and have heard the milkman 3 times this week, at the wrong end of the night! Imagine getting an internet addiction when you have a full-time job and a family! I have to use the PC after my wife goes to bed otherwise I get accused of ignoring her; the result is some very droopy eyelids during afternoon meetings at work! Even my previous hobbies such as reading and model-making are greatly reduced Adrian
