What is the best WWI research website?

Discussion in 'Prewar' started by tmac, Nov 12, 2015.

  1. tmac

    tmac Senior Member

    KevinBattle and Tricky Dicky ..

    As requested, I've now got a bit more information about John Pearce from his grandson. This is definitely the right person ...

    John Pearce, birth about 1885 in Warrington, married to Martha Lightfoot.

    ... John was a wire worker in Warrington and he and his wife Martha had two daughters, Elizabeth - who was the elder - and Emily. Martha had a third daughter, Margaret, but this child may have been born after Martha remarried. I'm sorry I haven't yet got any detailed family information, but I only saw the grandson very briefly today. I can certainly get more information if needed.

    I hope this clarification of which John Pearce we are talking about will help with any further research you may be able to offer.

    One thing that did occur to me. John Pearce is said to have gone to France on August 6, 1915, yet we also have him being wounded in Gallipoli on August 10, 1915. Is this likely, or is it another John Pearce?

    Once again, thanks for your help so far and for anything else you can find.
     
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    OK - lets start with some facts - 1911 census

    John Pearce in the 1911 England Census

    Name: John Pearce
    Age in 1911: 25
    Estimated birth year: abt 1886
    Relation to Head: Head
    Gender: Male
    Birth Place: Warrington
    Civil Parish: Warrington
    Search Photos: Search for 'Warrington' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
    County/Island: Lancashire
    Country: England
    Street address: 1 Aydens Yard
    Marital Status: Married
    Occupation: Wire Cleaner Wore Worker
    Registration district: Warrington
    Registration District Number: 459
    Sub-registration district: Warrington
    ED, institution, or vessel: 13
    Piece: 23143
    Household Members:
    Name Age
    John Pearce 25
    Martha Pearce 22
    Elizabeth Pearce 1


    John Pearce in the England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915

    Name: John Pearce
    Registration Year: 1910
    Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
    Registration district: Warrington
    Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
    Inferred County: Lancashire
    Volume: 8c
    Page: 281
    Records on Page:
    Name
    Richard Catterall
    Mary Fairhurst
    Martha Lightfoot
    John Pearce
    Ada R Sherratt


    John Pearce in the England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973

    Name: John Pearce
    Gender: Male
    Marital Status: Single
    Age: 25
    Birth Date: 1885
    Marriage Date: 24 Dec 1910
    Marriage Place: Parish Church of Warrington, Lancashire, England
    Father: John Pearce
    Spouse: Martha Lightfoot
    FHL Film Number: 1562974
    Reference ID: v69 p122 #244

    TD
     
  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Then we move info the WW1 military info

    and this becomes a little more confusing

    John Pearce in the British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920

    Name: John Pearce
    Gender: Male
    Birth Place: St Johns, Lancashire, England
    Age: 28
    Regimental Number: 10654
    Regiment Name: Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire) Regiment
    Form Title: Short Service Attestation
    Number of Images: 11
    Other Records: Search for 'John Pearce' in other WWI collections
    Family Members:
    Name Relation to Soldier
    John Pearce Self (Head)
    Martha Pearce Wife

    Now this tells us for his Pensions record that his wife is called Martha - which fits - what doesn't fit for me is we now have this regimental number of 10654.
    The other problem here is that it shows him being born in St Johns, which if my northern geography is working is near to Preston, not Warrington - perhaps someone can help out with that.

    I think in the last post we have the right man but I feel there is still some confusion over his military records.

    TD

    edited to add:

    John Pearce in the UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919

    Name: John Pearce
    Birth Place: Warrington, Lancs
    Death Date: 14 Mar 1917
    Death Place: France and Flanders
    Enlistment Place: Warrington
    Rank: L Corporal
    Regiment: Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire) Regiment
    Battalion: 1st 4th Battalion
    Regimental Number: 201288
    Type of Casualty: Died of wounds
    Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

    The Pension records shows 10654, yet the death info shows 201288 - I don't understand how the military could get something like so far wrong???
     
  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    It seems that his WW1 service records are probably one of those lost in 1942 and referred to a 'Burnt' as above if we find the right man in the military then there are pension records for him - most of which has been transcribed by Kevin in post 11, but I can download the actual documents and either post here or send to your email address if required.

    TD
     
  5. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    It seems that they did have a second daughter - to confirm earlier references:

    Name: Emily Pearce
    Mother's Maiden Name: Lighfoot
    Registration Year: 1912
    Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
    Registration district: Warrington
    Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
    Inferred County: Lancashire
    Volume: 8c
    Page: 447

    TD
     
  6. tmac

    tmac Senior Member

    Tricky Dicky,

    Thanks for your latest info. If you could post the pension records on here, I'd appreciate it.
     
  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Just for information - Martha's second husband:

    James Worsley

    Birth: About 1880 - Cheshire, England
    Death: 1944 - Cheshire, England
    Marriage: 22 May 1920 - Cheshire, England
    Spouse: Martha Lightfoot

    No children shown from this marriage in the family tree although checking births records:

    Joseph Worsley
    Jan-Feb-Mar 1921 Warrington Lancashire

    Martha Worsley
    Jul-Aug-Sep 1923 Warrington Lancashire

    TD
     
  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Hi tmac

    Below (if they all fit on one page) are the Pension Records as discussed. I have also made a precis of them and am still confused as they throw up more questions than answers:

    Enlisted Aug 1914
    Discharged (medically unfit) 8 Oct 1914

    Hospitalised (GSW) 24 Aug 1915
    Discharged hospital 21 Sep 1915

    Letter saying "Why as he was discharged medically unfit 8 Oct 1914" - 2 Oct 1915

    MIUK1914A_086101-01405.jpg MIUK1914A_086101-01406.jpg MIUK1914A_086101-01407.jpg MIUK1914A_086101-01408.jpg MIUK1914A_086101-01409.jpg MIUK1914A_086101-01410.jpg MIUK1914A_086101-01411.jpg MIUK1914A_086101-01412.jpg MIUK1914A_086101-01413.jpg MIUK1914A_086101-01414.jpg
     
    KevinBattle likes this.
  9. tmac

    tmac Senior Member

    Tricky Dicky,

    Thanks for these - it is looking like a baffling, but highly intriguing, story.

    How could he be medically discharged in October 1914 yet end up in Gallipoli in August 1915?

    And what about the medal card saying he was in France earlier in August 1915?

    How did he manage to wangle his way back into the Army after October 1914 and get away with it?

    I'll see his grandson next week and try to get some further information. If you turn up anything else in the meantime, please let me know.

    Thanks once again.

    Tom
     
  10. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Just a tip to save printer ink - download each page into Word (or similar) the click on the image and "Format" will appear on the top header bar. Click on that and on the extreme right will appear some editing options. Choose "Crop" and then click on the image and a scissor icon will appear. Place that on the edge of the document, preferably near the mid point and you will then be able to trim away the black surround. Click outside the image and then resize to page width/height as applicable.
    That gives you a larger image without wasting tons of black ink!

    There is a St John the Evangelist parish in Warrington.

    It seems we have 2 men with the same name, as it clearly cannot be possible to be the 2320/201288 landing in France on 6 August 1915 and also be the 10654 being wounded on Gallipoli on 10 August.
    Yet 10654 has the right wife and daughter (TD probably knows why Elizabeth wasn't mentioned when details of Martha's wedding given to the Army).

    BUT he's NOT the one tmac enquired about, simply due to the dates.

    I thought I had the explanation that he was first given 10654 in 1914 then discharged but somehow still managed to complete basic training and get shipped out to Gallipoli, only being rumbled when the Records Office found a "discharged" man coming back after Sick Leave, and the solution was simply to renumber him as 2320 (which later became 201288 when the Army decided to give each man a unique Service Number, rather than the Battalion/Regimental ones which could end up with J Smith 1234 of 1st battalion Blankshire and also J Smith 1234 2nd battalion etc etc).

    But it doesn't explain the dates conflict, so there has to be 2 men same name, same regiment.....

    The MIC, SDGW and CWGC entry are all for one man; the Pension records and Census are for the other.......

    Yet Soldiers Effects have the widow and daughter that match the Gallipoli man!

    I'm boggled as to how to clarify and solve!

    EDIT: There might be an explanation for the CCS date of death being different to CWGC. If he died during the night of 13/14 but after midnight, then the records wouldn't be processed until 14th....

    These are some of the men mentioned as dying in that report...
    WOOLLAMS, WILLIAM ARTHUR. Rank: Rifleman. Service No: 322074. Date of Death: 13/03/1917. Age: 22.
    Regiment/Service: London Regiment (City of London Rifles) 6th Bn.
    Grave Reference: XI. B. 37. Cemetery: LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY.
    Additional Information: Son of Joseph and Mary Rose Woollams, of 231, New Rd., Croxley Green, Rickmansworth, Herts.

    ENTICKNAP, JOHN. Rank: Lance Corporal. Service No: G/4539. Date of Death: 14/03/1917. Age: 21.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Sussex Regiment 13th Bn.
    Grave Reference: XI. B. 34. Cemetery: LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY.
    Additional Information: Son of Charles and Elizabeth Enticknap, of Clark's Farm, Wisborough Green, Billingshurst, Sussex. Native of Kirdford, Sussex.

    Then, in case tmac's contact is thinking of visiting, the Graves also have adjacent men
    HASLAM, ROBERT HAYDN. Rank: Private. Service No: 53259. Date of Death: 14/03/1917. Age: 22.
    Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 122nd Coy.
    Grave Reference: XI. B. 37A. Cemetery: LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY.
    Additional Information: Son of Robert and Annie Haslam, of 48, North Gate, New Basford, Nottingham.

    SWANBOROUGH, G W. Rank: Serjeant. Service No: 14825. Date of Death: 13/03/1917.
    Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers 26th Bn.
    Grave Reference: XI. B. 34A. Cemetery: LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY.

    DUTTON, FRANK. Rank: Private. Service No: 241612. Date of Death: 13/03/1917. Age: 21.
    Regiment/Service: King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) 1st/5th Bn.
    Grave Reference: XI. B. 33A. Cemetery: LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY.
    Additional Information: Son of Omer and Janet Dutton, of 1545, Delamere St., Winsford, Cheshire. Native of Over, Winsford.
     
  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Tom

    The questions that are baffling initially are :

    1. When he enlisted (Aug 1914) he was prescribed as fit, yet within 6 - 8 weeks he was being discharged (8 Oct 1914) as medically unfit. Possible training accident or were the medical staff pressurised into passing men?

    2. What did he then do between Oct 1914 and ending up with a GSW in hospital (Aug 1915). Did he re-enlist with another unit? Not 100% about Gallipoli.

    3. What happened between the letters of Oct 1915 and his presumed death in 1917.

    4. The medal card may not be for this man, as the service numbers do not add up, the Pension Record (where on page 1 the number is overwritten and the number underneath is illegible) has 10654, yet the medal card has 3230 and 201288.

    5. Why does the medical report on the death of a John Pearce in March 1917 use the service number 3230, which would have been his initial service number on enlistment but later revised as the number of men increased to 201288, which would have been on his dog tags? Having said that I have 2 dog tags for my Great Uncle and one has his 4 digit number and the other his 6 digit number - so I have probably answered my own question, the medical staff used a dog tag as identity for the records and it happened to be his 4 digit one.

    The plot thickens
    TD
     
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Having a little time to think about this, another question(s) comes to mind:

    If in 1915 he had a GSW to the head and left hospital after 29 days, that seems a very short time span, so do we presume he was wounded elsewhere and this period in hospital was some sort of recuperation? - if that is the case then following such an injury how did he ever end up at the Front to be killed in 1917, surely he can't have lied his way through that much??, and surely there would have been after effects from such an injury that would have affected his speech, mannerisms etc


    In essence for this thread we have:

    1. A John Pearce service numbers 3230 & 201288 who has a medal card and served in South Lancs - if he has a Medal Card does this mean this man did not die.

    2. A John Pearce service number 10654, born in Warrington with a wife called Martha who died in France as he has a Pensions Record


    Perhaps someone needs to contact the Regimental Museum - http://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/south-lancashire-regiment/

    Something else I have done regarding my Great Uncle - I found the hospital where he was after being injured in France, I contacted them and they still have his medical records but will not allow them to be seen by anyone until 100 years have passed (for me that is 2017) so perhaps if you can trace the hospital where he was and see if they have archives you may be able to obtain his medical records as the event was over 100 years ago.

    TD
     
  13. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Wow! What an epic bit of research :) One thing if there`s pension records does this not suggest its the wrong guy? If he was killed he wouldn't be granted a pension would he?

    Kyle
     
  14. tmac

    tmac Senior Member

    Thanks for everyone's latest input on this.

    I've re-read everything and I admit I'm confused.

    I agree that the only logical explanation is that we are talking about two different men.

    If so, it's an almost incredible coincidence that they should come from the same town, have the same name and age, be in the same regiment and their wives should have the same name.

    It could, of course, be a cock-up by the Army, getting records mixed up. But how likely is that?

    I hope to see John Pearce's grandson next week and will try to solve things.
     
  15. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    tmac

    I dont think they came from the same town, they did probably have the same name, they had different ages (born 1885 and 1888) and their wives had different names (Martha Lightfoot and Susannah Hanson)

    There do seem to be many inconsistencies and holes in the information on record. I also think that there may be confusion in the family tree information that people have created, which is why I never take it as gospel, but look at other sources to collaborate their info.

    TD

    edited:
    years of birth corrected

    Perhaps someone need to visit the Regimental Museum and check their records https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancashire_Infantry_Museum
     
  16. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    This one by the look of things
     
    Deacs likes this.
  17. graeme

    graeme Senior Member

    Nice one CL1
     
  18. tmac

    tmac Senior Member

    I’m sure we’ll get this sorted soon, but this is how I see it so far …

    John Pearce, 3230 / 201288, was a wire worker from Warrington, served in South Lancs Regt, was married to Martha, and died in a military hospital in Belgium in March 1917. The family of John Pearce, whose grandson I am in touch with, believe this to be their relative.

    The John Pearce on the medal form is the same man, recorded as having gone to France in August 1915. This is the same John Pearce whose death is recorded in the CCS war diary in March 1917.

    On the attestation form and subsequent documents (Post 28), we have a John Pearce 10654, South Lancs Regt, from Warrington (I think the St John’s is just the name of his parish, or church, in Warrington – it is not a separate town). His wife is Martha. He was medically discharged in October 1914, but somehow returned to serve in Gallipoli, where he was wounded in August 1915. He later apparently rejoined his regiment.

    As we have already said, it is highly unlikely John Pearce would go to France in August 1915, yet be wounded in Gallipoli a few days later.

    So are we talking about two different men?
     
  19. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    tmac

    I think someone needs to go to the Regimental museum and check out the Regimental rolls for the 3 service numbers and see what that throws up, or at least present them with the facts and see what they know. At the moment the facts we have been able to find appear to be disjointed and confused, the rest is guesswork, so facts are what is needed, the more the merrier.

    TD
     
  20. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    I can't see how this can be just one man, but 3230/201288 has to be who you are looking for.

    Our other scamp 10654 managed to get through a medical without problem when enlisting, having the same name for both his wife and child and then be discharged as medically unfit (no clue as to what). He then somehow turns up from sick leave after suffering a head wound in Gallipoli on 10 August 1915 (my head also hurts now!) and then disappears.

    If it wasn't for the clear fact that he couldn't have arrived in France on 6 August and been wounded in Gallipoli 4 days later, I'd have to say they were the same man. Same name, same wife and child name, same town and same Regiment.... ????
     

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