Why Is Stalingrad So Important?

(J_McAllister @ Jan 28 2006, 05:59 AM) [post=44955]Is it possible the Einsatzgruppen didn't make the Order of Battle?
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They would never have been included in 6th Army OOB, because they were never under 6th Army command.

From the dates you mention, they were in any case out of there before the main battle started.

The Einsaszgruppen were far from totally composed of SS. Probably the biggest single element were German reserve police units. As they moved into Soviet territory, they were often assisted by locally created auxilliary units.

 

Stalingrad was so important because the german army wanted the oil fields. In addition, its stalin's city hence stalingrad, hitler obviously wanted those bragging rights images/smilies/default/cool.gif

 

(angie999 @ Jan 28 2006, 01:13 PM) [post=44970](J_McAllister @ Jan 28 2006, 05:59 AM) [post=44955]Is it possible the Einsatzgruppen didn't make the Order of Battle?
[/b]

They would never have been included in 6th Army OOB, because they were never under 6th Army command.

From the dates you mention, they were in any case out of there before the main battle started.

The Einsaszgruppen were far from totally composed of SS. Probably the biggest single element were German reserve police units. As they moved into Soviet territory, they were often assisted by locally created auxilliary units.
[/b]
Sonderkommando 4a (the same that was present at Babi Yar btw), was the usual mix-up of SD, SiPo, Waffen-SS , and Reserve Police units. They also had recruited Ukrainian auxiliaries at that time.

 

:closedeyes: So Gestapo...The question still stands were du Soldaten der 171.SS-Fuss-Standarte?

Who was your Brigadeführer? What was your rank? Wo ist mein hund? (Leicht humor from Longest Day)

Tell us about your experiences... Did you end up in SSKZ?

images/smilies/default/ph34r.gif Honorable bloggers seem skeptical.

 

(Exxley @ Jan 28 2006, 07:10 PM) [post=44980](angie999 @ Jan 28 2006, 01:13 PM) [post=44970](J_McAllister @ Jan 28 2006, 05:59 AM) [post=44955]Is it possible the Einsatzgruppen didn't make the Order of Battle?
[/b]

They would never have been included in 6th Army OOB, because they were never under 6th Army command.

From the dates you mention, they were in any case out of there before the main battle started.

The Einsaszgruppen were far from totally composed of SS. Probably the biggest single element were German reserve police units. As they moved into Soviet territory, they were often assisted by locally created auxilliary units.
[/b]
Sonderkommando 4a (the same that was present at Babi Yar btw), was the usual mix-up of SD, SiPo, Waffen-SS , and Reserve Police units. They also had recruited Ukrainian auxiliaries at that time.
[/b]

The Ensatzkommando Groups never fought Russian Units.Their defined role was to discharge the policy of genocide, following up the rear of the Wehrmacht in the occupied terroritories carrying out the Wehrmacht's dirty work,not as if the Wehrmacht were entirely innocent of carrying out freely unpunishable excesses.

Regarding "Gestapo",further to my observations.One further point about his English which tends to be well structured but intentionally laboured,I would have thought that anyone speaking German unless academically proficient has a good risk, while writing English, of retaining the German language rule on nouns occasionally. The rule being that that every noun is written starting with a capital letter. Just a small point as is the use of the continental 7.Has he employed the continental 7.

Finally it has just occurred to me that the character "Gestapo" appears to be based on Sven Hassel who has made a good living purporting to be a battle hardened German soldier writing his experiences on the Eastern Front.Sven Hassel, it has been proved never fought in in any Second World War battle for anyone.His real background is that during the war he served as Danish Gestapo informer under his real name of Borge Villy Redsted Pedersen, a real Daish name if ever there was one.I think his mother was Austrian and his father Danish.

I can imagine that "Gestapo" has been reading Hassel's "Legion of the Damned" which is pure fiction.

 

THIS WAS GESTAPO'S FIRST POST IN JUNE 05

Life in the USA
Gestapo Posted on: Jun 2 2005, 09:49 PM


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Group: Full Members
Posts: 12
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From: Bulgaria
Member No.: 1,521


Hallo American friends !!
<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">I was in the German SS army 172 SS German inf. army.</span> But i also work for Gestapo as you can see at my nick name.Im old but i remamber U-boats and i also remamber there enigma codes.I also know the sicret German codes and plans to atack American boats and New York harboor.I dont know that Italians want to make atack at New York but if they have done the atack they will lose.Every man must know that Italian dont have good soldiers or tanks no aircrafts.They have only win at the Balkans and Africa because there is easy.Germany want Italy as alley because they have realy good battleships and boats.Germany have a sicret plane call "mershot the shuaine" or on english kill the pigs.This plane was sicret and only Gestapo Hitler and the oficers.The plane was made at 1943 but never work they want to make descant at New York and some more citys in USA they want to surprice Americans but not with boats they was to drop paratropers SS special devision.Of course i know that the plane was stuped and imposible because they want to drop the units after they win in Russia or USSR and this was imposible too.Germany have nothing stronger after 1944 the Russians drove us back at Warsaw win the battle at Stalingrad and Kharkove Italy was destroyed and English American and Canadian devison was ataking us at the west front.Bulgaria drove us back from Balkans.Germany can only defend themselfs and i see what the German want to make they have making most powerfull weapon Atomn bomb they desidet to drop one at USA i thing but the Russians were fast and atack Berlin before they can make theyre plane.Of course i surender to Americans who give me medical support food.I have done the right thing to surender to Americans not the Russians.(Sorry for my bad English). If some one want to contact me pleace write me at daniel_stoyanov@abv.bg


THIS IS THE SECOND

Life in the USA
Gestapo
Posted on: Jun 3 2005, 09:35 PM


Private


Group: Full Members
Posts: 12
Joined: 2-June 05
From: Bulgaria
Member No.: 1,521



Thank you for your understanding.Yes i will be 88 years old but in great health.And remamber i may be from the German army i may was a fashist but i havent hate Americans or Russians never.They are just war friends who are on the outer side of the front.

 

Surely the real significance of the battle is that it marked the turning point? Although Germany had defeats before Stalingrad and victories after it, it marked the first in a series of big defeats, which eventually led to the downfall of Nazism. Stalingrad was the culmination of the last big successful ground offensive launched by the Wehrmacht. It also ensured that Caucasian oil would not come under German control, and that there would be no link up between troops advancing through the Caucasus with Rommel's forces in North Africa, which in turn might have led to an invasion of India and link up with the Japanese. I have read (and I don't remember where - someone more erudite than me might know where?) that Stalingrad ensured that Germany wouldn't win the war, and Kursk ensured that they would lose it. I think other operations may have played their part (Germany lost 300 000 men in Operation Bagration, for example, and of course there was Falaise), but it's a saying that has the ring of truth. The numbers are significant too - the 250 000+ men lost at Stalingrad were more than Rommel actually had in total in North Africa, which also might help put it into context.

 

Stalingrad is so important because the Russians had their first real victory when other countries did not against Nazi Germany. The Nazis seemed unstoppable. Hitler wanted to conquer Russia for materials, and he didn't like the name, (STALIN-grad). Hitler wanted to be the Napoleon of Germany, and do what he could not, again, conquer Russia. If the Germans had conquered Russia they would have really been trouble for the allies. But the Russians held them back, and quite possibly saved the world from the nazis. That is why it is so important!

 

I half saw a programme on the history channel last night about Stalingrad. I missed quite a bit of it. But it did have some tests they did with Russian and German uniforms (and rifles) and how they reacted to the intense cold. Does anybody have any more info on the programme please.

 

Stalingrad Video (3:12) Category: MILITARY & WAR
On November 22, 1942 at Stalingrad, two arms of a tremendous Soviet pincer movement encircled the entire Sixth Army, and more than 200,000 German troops along with a hundred tanks, eighteen hundred... Watch the video Add to Playlist

 

Thanks Panzerfaust. Mucho Thanko.

 

I think thats it, I just google searched "History Channel Stalingrad"

 

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading many of these posts. The whole Stalingrad question has always fascinated and intreigued me. It really was a pivotal time of WW2.

Here's a link that gives some wonderful information and a virtual tour of the area as well: http://www.stalingrad.com.ru/

 

Here's another good site for information: http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/

 

The losses in German troops, Hiwis and materiel were significant - but the big fact was that the German army had put everything it had into taking Stalingrad and failed. It demonstrated that there were things it couldn't do.

It's OK to point out that the biggest North African battles were about a third the size of the big Russian Front battles, but it should be remembered that both sides were fighting at the end of very complex and resource-intensive supply lines thousands of miles long - and the battles had real strategic importance.

Regards,
MikB

 

Stalingrad, in itself represents no military or strategic significance, it was essentially battle of will between the two dictators, Stalin and Hitler. Hitler completely underestimated the russian resistance when he tried to push them into the Volga. It turned into the essential turning point of the russian front, the russians surrounded the 6th army and they surrendered, then they pushed forward, scattering the remaining hungarian and Italian forces into the steppe.

 

In my view Stalingrad is the triumph of two things: military deception and realistic planning.

“Military deception” because the Soviet command managed to ammass a large manoeuvre force on both flanks of the city without it ever being detected, while at the same time feeding 62nd Army in the city with just the enough force to just keep the Germans at arms length, but slowly advancing all the time. I suppose if the Germans finally managed to eleiminate all resistance in the city itself that would be totally irrelevant considering what was pending on the flanks.

“Realistic planning” because what was done was a two pronged encirclement respecting all the classic Principles of War:

· Objective – a clear and achievable objective was defined: isolate the 6th Army from flanks and relief forces, and cut off his lines of communications
· Offensive – the Soviets took and retained the initiative and never let it go.
· Mass – a realistic amount of force was used against weak sectors of the flanks to take and retain the objective
· Manoeuvre – both arms the attacking forces after breakthrough travveled long distances into the Axis operational rear to reach their final objective.
· Unity of Command – there was a single mind with clear ideas behind the plan execution, allowing flexibility but not divergence.
· Security – the enemy was not allowed to acquire any advantage
· Surprise – the Axis simply did not see what was coming, see above
· Simplicity – two prongs, one north, one south of the objective meeting midway behind the enemy, while the middle kept the enemy busy. Build an inner ring to keep who’s in inside, build an outer ring to keep who’s out outside. Keep It Simple, Soldier.

German 6th Army was literally at the end of it’s logistical tether, always on the brink of victory but never quite, while entrusting it’s flanks to allies (Italian 8th Army, Romanian 4th Army) who suffered from lack of absolute numbers, lack of equipment, weak reserves, weak logistics, too extensive fronts. At the same time they were faced by an enemy who had already tasted victory the previous winter, and who was confidently ammassing more than sufficient force in secret to accomplish a realistically near objective instead of running off as Stalin’s often displaced optimism demanded.

Besides the very large amount of fighting troops captured, a large number of staff troops and specialists were captured too, and these were the ones who knew how to run an army. Entire divisonal, corps and army staffs were captured, something that had never occurred before to the German armed forces.

 

In my view Stalingrad is the triumph of two things: military deception and realistic planning.

Just curious. How does one deceive and plan to cause a major winter storm to save their decrepit army from total annihalation?

 

Despite Stalin's extensive powers, I do not think he caused winter, that would be better left to a higher Power than his...

And what decrepit army do you refer to, German 6th, Italian 8th, Romanian 4th? Or the Soviet army that burst through the latter two and encircled the first one? I am afraid you were not clear enough.