William Cliftlands (Gordons; 1 Black Watch (Tyneside Scottish); 5th Black Watch, Lincolns, Norfolks

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Rookie, Sep 19, 2022.

  1. Rookie

    Rookie Member

    Hello all,

    I'm in the process of updating this posting as it has been moved to a new thread and I've already received help from Stopi (thank you Stopi) with regards to the 5th BW war diary, which was the main ask in my original request.

    I am trying to interpret and fill in blanks on the army service records for William Cliftlands. I've given a summary of his record below; I'm also attaching a shot of one page of his Service & Casualty record and would be grateful if anyone could give any insight on a few of the details in it:

    upload_2022-9-22_8-58-59.jpeg

    I'm wondering how the transfers around his two injuries worked at the time:

    - TOS RH 44 in Nov 1944, but no indication of being SOS from 44 Brigade: would that be due to his x(iv) status, i.e,. in transit/detached from unit (1st BW TS having been suspended and dispersed by then)?
    - how would he have got from the U.K. to his posting with the 5th BW in Jan 1945. Would it have been with 44 Brigade?
    - any clues as to his probable whereabouts between embarking for NWE 29 Nov 1944 and posting to 5th BW on 7 Jan 1945 (again, with 44 Bde?).
    - he was wounded a week later, on 14 Jan 1945 and appears on the photo of 152nd Bde HQ at Mook in March. Am I right in thinking he must have been attached to HQ once fit to work but not yet fit to fight with 5th BW in 153 Bde after he got the bayonet wound?
    - on 18 Apr 1945 his was discharged to 32 RH (why?), no SOS, but posted back to 5th BW again two months later. Can anyone interpret the abbreviations at the start of that line on his record? It looks like 'Dis' for discharge, but then 'L' something, which defeats me.
    - as far as I can tell, his army service records do not note when he became L/Cpl. Would that info exist anywhere else?
    - and as a bonus question! Bramshot was a transit hospital but the service records give no indication how long he was there or whether he was sent elsewhere. If anyone can point me to that information, I'd be grateful.

    Summary history of William's service:

    William Cliftlands, enlisted at age 17 ½, spent time in training and Reserve, then posted to the Gordon Highlanders (2nd London Scottish), rank Private.

    He was with the post-D-Day BEF in June 1944, now in the 1st Black Watch (Tyneside Scottish) and arriving just in time for the final days of Operation Martlet and the Rauray conflict. He was shot by a sniper just as Operation Mango wrapped. The bullet passed through his hand and went on to kill his battalion buddy who was in the vehicle with him (I have been unable to identify the latter from the casualty lists or the CWGC). He was evacuated to Bramshot, then had a (re)-training spell at No.8 ITC. Then posted to 1st Bn Liverpool Scottish for a few weeks, before being TOS Royal Highlanders (44 Infantry Brigade?) on the X list as an x(iv) before being posted back to NWE (embarked 29 Nov 1944). I have no clue as to his whereabouts from then until he was posted to the 5th BW on 7 Jan 1945 (I would guess he arrived as a reinforcement on 6 Jan 1945); long ago he did mention to family about being sent to the Ardennes, but he rarely spoke about his war years.

    While detached from the 5th BW due to the second injury (just a week after joining the Bn), he was not evacuated as far as records show, and there is no record of his whereabouts. However, in a recent find, he pops up on the 152nd Brigade HQ photo taken at Mook just ahead of the Rhine Crossing. I suppose he recovered enough from the bayonet gouge to his leg to be on a duty status until he was fit enough to re-join the 5th Black Watch in 153 Brigade. I'm finding the 51HD web site very helpful on that phase of the war in Europe (and I discovered it has the 152nd HQ photo too).

    He stayed on in Germany after the war, serving with the 4th Bn Lincolns and with the Norfolks before returning to the UK. During his service years he became Lance Corporal but his army records do not identify the date of promotion, although I do at least have a photo of him as L/Cpl with the Norfolks and his army discharge records also note that status.

    Among endless online sources - many bookmarked but not yet read, I have found the 1st BW (Tyneside Scottish) war diaries very helpful on John Dixon’s 70 Brigade web site and John himself of real help, and I now have a copy of the book b Kevin Baverstock, which he also recommended. I’m also currently waiting to hear back from the Gordons after making an enquiry to them just recently.

    This undertaking is my first serious foray into matters military and WW2 operations, so I hope you will treat my enquiry with a little patience. I am rightly in awe of the expertise and deep command of the subject on this web site. My toehold increases every day, but after several months it is still little more than a toehold.

    Thanks for reading this post, which I write on a momentous day for the U.K., the Commonwealth and indeed the world.

    Respectfully,
    Rookie
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
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  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
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  3. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Some links to posts on your topic:
    Brits in the Ardennes: 16th December 1944 Battle of the Bulge begins
    51st HD in the Ardennes: Ardennes 1945, 51st Highland Div
    51st HD in the Reichswald: VERITABLE 1945: 51st Highland Division Reichswald Forest
    51st HD in the Rhine Crossing: RHINE CROSSING 1945: The Rees bridgehead (30 Corps in operation 'Turnscrew')

    Rookie, I visited the Ardennes several times with 5th Black Watch veterans and have a copy of the War Diary. I did a small publication on this operation as well. Besides that I was with Highland veterans in the Reichswald and the Rhinecrossing site of Rees. Hopefully I can be of help. Please feel free to contact me per PM.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
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  4. Rookie

    Rookie Member

    Thank you, CL1 and stolpi, for your kind replies. I will post to a new thread as you suggest, CL1. Stolpi, thank you so much for providing those links: I will do some homework asap! It is really good news to know you have the war diary. Can you tell me how I contact you 'per PM'. I am so new to the site that I do not recognise the term - assuming it is a contact method on the site?
    thanks again, both.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
  5. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Rookie, If you click on my name in the avatar you can opt for 'start a conversation' and send me a personal message.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
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  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Moved posts to own thread.
     
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