Zimmerit. (And schurzen digressions)

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by von Poop, Jul 4, 2006.

  1. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Zimmerit.
    The anti-magnetic paste applied so thickly to so many German tanks from (if I remember right) september 1943 until being discarded (again, if I recall) in late '44.
    was it worth it? or just another strange idea? I can't think of examples of similar material being used by any other nation?? How much did they suffer in the east from Infantry assaulting with magnetic mines??
    Any thoughts?

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  2. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Zimmerit.
    The anti-magnetic paste applied so thickly to so many German tanks from (if I remember right) september 1943 until being discarded (again, if I recall) in late '44.
    was it worth it? or just another strange idea? I can't think of examples of similar material being used by any other nation?? How much did they suffer in the east from Infantry assaulting with magnetic mines??
    Any thoughts?

    Cheers,
    Adam.

    Zimmerit

    According to this, it was made of non-magnetic material
     
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    :) Yep, That's good pedantry that is, I should, of course, have said 'Non-magnetic' rather than 'Anti-magnetic'. Cheers.:)

    Makes me laugh that the allies put so much effort into obtaining samples only to find It's basically just concrete/epoxy/even horse-hair in some formulations, but the question stands, did they need protection from magnetic mines more than any other nation? I'd mostly thought the Soviets tried to jam mines under the turret bustle rather than slap them on the sides..?
     
  4. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    They must have thought the threat warranted it for the tanks on the Eastern front to have it
     
  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    British mk2 helmets for military use had stainless steel (non magnetic) rims whereas some of the home front models didn't (they were marked with extra drillings to avoid issue to combatants)

    I wonder as well, just what the perceived danger was which led to this precaution. How many troops would have come within close range of magnetic devices, and at the same time not have had any other magnetic steel items with them. Presumably just mine clearance.
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    British mk2 helmets for military use had stainless steel (non magnetic) rims whereas some of the home front models didn't (they were marked with extra drillings to avoid issue to combatants)

    I wonder as well, just what the perceived danger was which led to this precaution. How many troops would have come within close range of magnetic devices, and at the same time not have had any other magnetic steel items with them. Presumably just mine clearance.

    That's interesting. Never heard the like. Maybe a guide that "this helmet could affect your compass"? (or gunsight perhaps??)
     
  7. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    I thought metal for helmets contained manganese regardless of the other constituent elements of the helmet due to it's resistance to deforming /penetration etc.

    The sappers I saw on bomb disposal photos all either wore the officers service cap or beret or similar. Makes you think if the nails in ammo boots would set these mines off. I think Sapper would be the gent to answer this question.
     
  8. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    http://www.panzerworld.net/zimmerit.html

    According to this, it was made of non-magnetic material
    In the article it mentions that there was the belief that they stopped using it and a rumour that the impact from shells was setting the vehicle/ tank on fire. Yet further into the text it mentions that they used to harden the zimmerit with a blowtorch. Bit of a contradiction somewhere. Gossip merchants at work me thinks.
     
  9. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Zimmerit.
    The thick anti-magnetic paste applied so thickly to so many German tanks from (if I remember right) september 1943 until being discarded (again, if I recall) in late '44.
    was it worth it? or just another strange idea? I can't think of examples of similar material being used by any other nation?? How much did they suffer in the east from Infantry assaulting with magnetic mines??
    Any thoughts?

    Cheers,
    Adam.
    I might be out chronologically here but if the tanks were involved in the likes of Stalingrad and Leningrad then the tanks would have in some measure been involved in street fighting and Russian infantry slapping mines onto them from concealed positions as well as the Molotov cocktail.
     
  10. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    Gotta think of the nature of the war in the east. Mens lives meant nothing, Where the more squeamish Western allies would think twice about sending well trained and equiped troops up against tanks im sure the red army would have no such qualms. Faced with this no wonder the Germans did everything they could to protect the tanks.

    What also interesting is the spaced armour you often see on Russian front vehicles. Now Ive heard that this wasnt so much to protect against the ineffectibe anti tank rifles but as a defence against shaped charge rounds, now i didnt think the Russians had a lot of shaped chage weopens???
     
  11. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Just as an aside to Zimmerit :) I think there's some certainty that Schurzen were deployed initially against AT Rifles, their hollow-charge stand-off properties were appreciated later in the war but weren't the initial reason.

    Just noticed that the Soviets got 1000 PIATs through lend lease! They certainly lagged behind in man-portable rocket weapons despite the early and largely innefective RPG40 shaped charge.

    With a little book-digging to confirm things Zimmerit was first applied to Tiger & Pz.IV in september '43 (& retrofitted to pz.IV's in service in Jan '44,) can't find where I got the date for it's discontinuation from but I'm sure it was stopped during the war, I'll keep digging.

    I'm trying to find a magnetic Soviet AT weapon, (some Soviet grenades here:http://members.shaw.ca/dwlynn/russian/russianid.htm) can't seem to find one but my books are a bit thinner on the Red Army generally, can anyone flag one up or was it improvised or captured German Magnetic mines they were defending against??
    View attachment 497
    (Picture from:Haft-Hohlladung 3 kg)
     

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  12. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    The spaced armour seen added to many types of armoured vehicle is primarily designed to protect against HEAT rounds. As has been pointed out HEAT rounds are the shaped charge warheads that were mainly used in anti-tank rockets such as the Panzerschreck, Panzerfaust and the allied Bazooka. It would have been less protection againt 'placed' shaped charge mines, unless the person placing the mine on the tank wasn't that bright or in a really big hurry.

    As with all things, just because it was designed to counter the HEAT threat, didn't mean that it wasn't also added protection against other AT threats. It provided very good protection against HESH, and limited additional protection against kinetic rounds (solid shot). The AT rifles were kinetic rounds and any additional armour that was put in their way made them more or less ineffective by that time.

    It is interesting to note that many years later the same idea was used on British vehicles and sangers in Northern Ireland, having been refined by using cages rather than sheet to improve visibility and reduce weight while still providing a good level of HEAT protection. The same is now being used in Iraq fitted to the Stryker showing that a good idea endures.
     
  13. spotter

    spotter Senior Member

    Great Britain supplied MK3 Clam mines/charges to russia as part of war aid .These are basicaly an explosive charge in a bakelite caing(the mk1 was tinned steel)which was attatched to its target with magnets.These are capable of cracking engine blocks ,breaking railway track etc ..could these have caused damage to tanks ??
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Great Britain supplied MK3 Clam mines/charges to russia as part of war aid .These are basicaly an explosive charge in a bakelite caing(the mk1 was tinned steel)which was attatched to its target with magnets.These are capable of cracking engine blocks ,breaking railway track etc ..could these have caused damage to tanks ??
    Sounds promising.:) Picture of lend-lease clam-mine here: http://www.millsgrenades.co.uk/Soe%202.htm
    Can't immediately find how big the charge was or how many were sent though? any ideas?


    (Continued schurzen aside: The spaced armour/schurzen made from boiler plate seen hung from German tanks certainly proved it's most effective against Bazookas and their ilk but were initially deployed in the east as extra defense against PTRD/RS Anti-tank rifles to protect the running gear. Many books repeat the belief the shaped charge standoff effect was reason number one, including the extremely dilligent Jentz & Doyle in the 80's but even they now state the AT rifle was the primary reason.:) )
     
  15. spotter

    spotter Senior Member

    The clam used 8oz of TNT/TETRYL .they are small approx 5.75" X 2.5" X 1.5" .detonation was mainly by time delay .Over 2.5 million were produced(i think the .5 million must have ended up at work cos we find lots of them)
     

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  16. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    Sounds promising.:) Picture of lend-lease clam-mine here: http://www.millsgrenades.co.uk/Soe%202.htm
    Can't immediately find how big the charge was or how many were sent though? any ideas?


    (Continued schurzen aside: The spaced armour/schurzen made from boiler plate seen hung from German tanks certainly proved it's most effective against Bazookas and their ilk but were initially deployed in the east as extra defense against PTRD/RS Anti-tank rifles to protect the running gear. Many books repeat the belief the shaped charge standoff effect was reason number one, including the extremely dilligent Jentz & Doyle in the 80's but even they now state the AT rifle was the primary reason.:) )

    suchj a simple weopen (and cheap compared to the price of a tank) that the soviets must have made them in the millions, no doubt handed out the local populace, in fact somewherE I have picture of a dog with an anti tank mine attached to it.

    (Cant buy into that one how effective was an anti tank rifle against a PIV??)
     
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    (Cant buy into that one how effective was an anti tank rifle against a PIV??)

    I've said this before and I'll say it again.:)
    A weapon does not have to penetrate to stop a tank.
    (Maybe being male we're generally a little fixated on 'penetration'?;))
    PTRD/PTRS was more than capable of shattering suspension components/breaking tracks/jamming turrets/spattering vision slits. (all this from a far greater range than that available to RP projectiles of the period .)
    Schuerzen (skirts) were Initially deployed in a theatre where rocket propelled rounds were virtually unknown and the opposition used AT rifles in massed groups of roughly 20. They were there to protect vulnerable components and make oblique hits on vision slits more difficuilt. In a russian winter (or anywhere else) a tank with shattered tracks, totally obscured vision slits and interior spalling would be as innefective as one that had been run through by a 76.2 round. Not only Schuerzen but many of the spaced armour blocks added to various Ausf's of Pz.IV around the vision slots and glacis were put there specifically in an attempt to neutralise AT rifles.

    Back on ZIMMERIT, anyione seen a picture of an SdKfZ.251 with Zimmerit coating as mentioned in that article? I'm intrigued.:)
     
  18. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    I have been reading this thread and thought about it, and one thing comes to mind. And I am probably being dense here as I have never actually heard of zimmerit before, so forgive me a stupid question. Surely the magnets of the mines would still be attracted to the steel underneath the anti-magnetic material? Or was this zimmerit stuff applied so thinkly that the magnets couldn't get a purchase on the steel?
    I know, I'm thick.
     
  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Fair question mate, it is generally slapped on pretty thickly but there does seem to be great variation. Sometimes a thin smear and sometimes an inch or so thick, I assume with the vehicle moving and rocking about it would be just enough to make a mine fall off.
    [​IMG] You're kind of getting to my problem with the stuff, if it was needed, worthwhile or even worked at all... then why didn't any other nation seem to feel the need for anti-magnetic defences on their vehicles?
     
  20. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Fair question mate, it is generally slapped on pretty thickly but there does seem to be great variation. Sometimes a thin smear and sometimes an inch or so thick, I assume with the vehicle moving and rocking about it would be just enough to make a mine fall off.
    [​IMG] You're kind of getting to my problem with the stuff, if it was needed, worthwhile or even worked at all... then why didn't any other nation seem to feel the need for anti-magnetic defences on their vehicles?

    From an Eastern front perspective, desperate means, desperate measures, when you have an enemy that desperate they are training dogs to go under tanks with explosives.They couldn't replace the tanks the way the allies could in numbers Their supply lines are stretched. If the tank is at the front it's stopping there.

    On the western front around 44 on you have the greater superiority in numbers of Shermans and the like . The Sherman gets hit or immobilised they tow it back , another one goes in it's place, don't need to bother with an equivalent to Zimmerit. My thoughts - not necessarily what was the case!!
     

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