24th Lancers - "B" Squadron

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Ramiles, Mar 18, 2018.

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  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Similarly, (when I looked) - for the pic to "zoom-in"

    THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH-WEST EUROPE 1944-45 | Imperial War Museums

    I got this one (link above) - rather nice ;-) - when I searched the IWM site to find the original...

    DESCRIPTION
    Object description
    Sherman tanks and transport of 8th Armoured Brigade moving through Kevelaer, 4 March 1945.
    Label
    Sherman tanks and transport of 8th Armoured Brigade moving through Kevelaer, Germany, 4 March 1945.

    Catalogue number: B 15147

    And related objects there - giving "Lancashire"
    THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH-WEST EUROPE 1944-45 | Imperial War Museums

    Though for something that's "quite clear" - I am missing it - can I just not see the wood for the trees? (of Lancashire ;-)

    BTW are these SRY tanks, or another regiment of the 8th Armoured?

    Edit: 4/7RDG - finally saw though the trees of "Lancashire" to the forest beyond ;-)

    4RDG_LANCASHIRE_Tank_name.JPG

    Ps. for anyone with "B" Squadron 24th L info ;-) hello :) - please still feel free to post whatever you have here :blush:
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  2. Shooting off the hip are you not, Ramiles :D?

    The answer (as well as the IWM link) was/is in the caption and comment of the Gallery image as linked: A_Sherman_tank_of_8th_Armoured_Brigade_in_Kevelaer,_Germany,_4_March_1945._B15145 | WW2Talk

    The name LANCASHIRE is in (probably) Red over a dark (Black?) background, so not very contrasted, but once you know it, the name should appear 'quite clear' to you ;)

    Michel
     
  3. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

  4. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Just found documentary evidence from a chap who was there (Ken Wareham) that the Sherman tank named Pestilence IV was the mount of the 24th Lancers Intelligence Officer Ken Gill.

    Pestilence therefore is a possibility although, as Michel has properly stated, we need access to a better quality image.

    Michel: 'conversation' message also sent
    Kevin: will also send 'conversation' message to you.
     
  5. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Known names and census numbers

    RHQ

    CONQUEST, CONQUEST II, CONQUEST III, CONQUEST IV

    DEATH, DEATH II, DEATH III, DEATH IV

    FAMINE, FAMINE II, FAMINE III, FAMINE IV

    PESTILENCE, PESTILENCE II, PESTILENCE III, PESTILENCE IV

    WAR

    Sherman III T152881

    A Sqn

    ARMAGEDDON

    3 Troop

    Sherman III T150995, T151040 (replaces T152214), T151317 (replaces T150995), T152214 (knocked out 12/6/1944), T152248

    Troop unknown

    Sherman Vc T148496

    B Sqn

    BLIMEY BILL

    4 Troop

    BLACK PRINCE, BLOODY MARY, BUTCHER OF CUMBERLAND, PIN UP GIRL

    5 Troop

    BUCCANEER T152350, BANDIT, BRIGAND

    Squadron and Troop unknown

    Sherman III THE RAM

    Sherman Vc T148465

    If anyone can add anything or see any errors please post.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     
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  6. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    T150975 was also KO on 12th June 1944.
    Kevin: note 975 not 995 per your post.

    HDRB_28.png
    Reference: Harry Dews 24L 'A' Squadron 3rd Troop Roll Book.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I gather this was the fate of the Sgt's tank in the first troop of "C" Squadron of the 24th L...

    How granddad lost a bottle of whiskey (and a Sherman tank) in Normandy

    With gd. having to have his corporal (Lambourne) blow it up after it had its track taken off by a mine.

    I think it's in there somewhere that he just ref's it as "that Crate" - which I will be "happy to call his 24th L "C" squadron tank" (i.e. the one he went in to Normandy) at least - at the mo. ;-)

    He also mentioned the two tanks - on either side - of him being knocked out - when they came over a rise nr. Fontenay - and I've assumed that these were perhaps (most logically) the officer's tank of the first troop of "C" squadron (i.e. that of Lt. Hawkins) and the Corporal's tank - i.e. that of Cpl. Corbett.

    I don't think any of the crews were hurt (or at least not hurt badly) in any of these incidents, though circumstantially I think roughly around then Lt.Hawkins was "wounded in the arm" and Cpl. Corbett - I'm not sure of at the mo.

    Post_on_C.JPG
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  8. PDR

    PDR New Member

    My grandfather was a co-driver in 4th Troop, is there any way that I can narrow down which tank he might have been in?[​IMG]
     
  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    PDR,

    I think your grandfather was "Robinson, D. S." ?

    Do you know who his tank commander was, or any of his crew? Even (just) the rank of his tank commander would narrow it down to a particular tank I guess...

    4th Troop - B squadron =

    Lt. Richard Leather
    Sgt. Norton.
    Corporal Bamford, A.
     
  10. I finally managed to find a better version of B6219, where the name is unfortunately still not very clear, just slightly less blurred than on the other versions:
    B6219 (part) - 24L RHQ Sherman III tank 'PESTILENCE II' (or later), 29 Jun 44.jpg

    However, enough can be guessed to say that those of you who saw 'PESTILENCE' as a possiblity were right!

    The apparent gap on the right should also mean that it is followed with roman numerals, probably 'II'. We would need to look for clues in the entire War Diary to find out when the various avatars were destroyed, so as to be sure it is not PESTILENCE III or IV.

    So, 24th Lancers it is, as must be the tank(s) on B6218 too then.

    Michel
     
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  11. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    So PESTILENCE IV it is.

    Here is the full document I referred to in my previous post. The document also explains what happened to I to III and hence why this was IV.

    IMG_3773.JPG

    I've been very privileged to have met Messrs Higginson, Gill, Wareham and Western over the years, all now sadly departed.
     
  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    There is a bit of IWM film here: THE 1ST BATTALION SUFFOLK REGIMENT OCCUPIES THE CHÂTEAU DE LA LONDE [Allocated Title]

    4mins 16 seconds long, with the title: "THE 1ST BATTALION SUFFOLK REGIMENT OCCUPIES THE CHÂTEAU DE LA LONDE [Allocated Title]"

    And description: "The cameraman surveys the grounds of "La Petite Londe"; branches lopped off trees by mortar and artillery fire lie scattered all over the front lawn while only the burnt-out shell of the building itself still exists (roofless after the original owner set fire to it when ordered out by the Germans on 6 June). Built twenty feet off the ground between four trees, a wooden platform provided an ideal sniping position for German troops defending La Petite Londe. In and around the grounds, men belonging to the 1st Battalion Suffolk Regiment dig in and stand guard."

    The current IWM description stops there, but this describes the film only during its early parts.

    There is a board at 2min 10seconds which says 29/6 Sgt.Parkinson Roll 1 - and around the 2min 30 seconds mark it pans across a familiar scene:

    24th Lancers - "B" Squadron

    Edit: Sergeant Parkinson is an appliable filter here: Search objects | Imperial War Museums

    Where fewer of the IWM films are viewable online but where also descriptions of what the various films are thought to contain exist. I have looked for a description that might seem to match the latter half of the film above in case there is some more potential detail there, but I haven't stumbled across it as I have not had a chance to look too exhaustively as yet ;-)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  13. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    There is no listing for the other 2 films included with A70 62-1. It is only listed under 'Walter' but also includes footage by Ginger (1:05) and Parkinson (2:08). There is one other film IWM I know where they mixed 2 together, All films are dated 29/6 but the B Series photos of the same scenes (B6218 to B6226) are dated June 30th!
     
  14. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Interesting. I wonder if the dates difference accounts for why some claims are made that these tanks are Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry but those of us who 'know' the 24th Lancers (including Leonard Willis who wrote None Had Lances) 'know" they are 24th Lancers?
     
  15. Yes, I think this is the case: although the IWM did have the correct Unit (24 L) and date (29 Jun) for B6918, B6919 and B6226 in their listing of the B Series, they did not use that info in their individual photo captions:
    I suppose, just like SDP suggested, that they captioned B6918 as SRY and 30 June because it was shot by the same Sgt Christie who shot B6222 showing AKILLA of SRY on 30 June.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  16. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    BTW Were these brief clips of the Shermans etc. used in contemporary 1944 newsreel anyone can now point to? or is anyone aware of any more of the various subsequent (i.e. book, article) usages of these individual pictures etc. ? i.e.

    On p162 of "None Had Lances" there is the " 'O' Group near Rauray, 29th June 1944 " one

    & on p164 "NHL" - "Lancers passing knocked out Panther tank near Rauray, 29th June 1944 "

    & on p166 of "NHL" there is " H.Q. Tanks harboured in orchard near Rauray, 29th June 1944 " (Nb. specifically it says 29th and not 30th there)

    Additionally various of the "B6 etc" series are also shown in the 2002 published book "Breaking the Panzers" by Kevin Baverstock, and interestingly for the IWM picture B6225 "Troops digging in beside Sherman Tanks, Rauray, 29 June 1944" p90 of Kevin Baverstock's "BtP" whilst currently for this same picture: THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORMANDY 1944

    IWM captioning now appears to be: "Infantry of 49th Division digging in beside Sherman tanks near Rauray, 30 June 1944."

    So the dates there too are at variance etc. Perhaps going from a period around the 1980's - 2002 when 29th was in use up to now when a lot seem to say 30th.

    It's possible perhaps that after the 24th L were disbanded the pictures etc. were more "useful" / wanted to be "used" for articles / media that specifically were in reference to the SRY, as there was less demand for pictures that were destined to be thereafter used in reference to the 24th L.

    Bearing in mind, for instance also the censorship etc. - i.e. if the reporters were to reference the 24th L what about the regiment would they have been allowed to say...
    The 24th Lancers Welfare and Families Associaton

    And how it has been variously subsequently reported i.e.: 24th Lancers - Wikipedia

    "After intensive action in the Tilly-sur-Seulles, Fontenay-le-Pesnel, Tessel Wood and Rauray areas, the regiment was disbanded towards the end of July 1944 due to heavy casualties and limited reinforcements"
     
  17. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    The film cameramen marked all their work on the day they made it so I think they will be correct. The stills would be sent to the rear 'unseen' for processing and marked some time later when they would be matched with the dope sheet. Mistakes can creep in because a lot of negatives were binned so who is to say Shermas photographed on one day that did not survive were conflated with Shermans photographed on the next that did produce a print.
     
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  18. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Nb. From the "Fontenay-le-Pesnel" thread: Fontenay-le-Pesnel

    And especially: Fontenay-le-Pesnel

    This frame, from the IWM film Film number A70 49-9:

    "II. (At around 3 mins 20 seconds in) A Sherman tank squadron from the 8th Armoured Brigade rumbles along a dusty road leading to 49th Division's front between Tilly-sur-Seulles and Fontenay-le-Pesnel past a shot-down Royal Canadian Air Force Spitfire IX from No 412 'Falcon' Squadron."

    17d6m1944_Sherman_Spitfire.JPG

    May show a "B" Squadron tank (and indeed, further, a "B" Squadron tank troop) of the 24th Lancers on 17th June 1944.

    17d6m1944_Sherman.JPG
     
  19. This same tank appears to bear the callsign '5' in addition to the 'B' Sqn square on the back of its turret:
    A70 49-9 - 03.40 - 24L B Sqn callsign 5, from Hervieu to Andrieu, 17 Jun 44 [Parkinson].jpg

    I was not aware that 24L tank wore callsigns. This one looks like it is only present on the back of the turret, and the absence of a letter following it might mean 5 Troop Leader?

    Michel
     
  20. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    BTW Have you access to a copy of the book "None Had Lances" Michel?

    The troop leader of the 5th Troop of "B" Squadron of the 24th L - Lt. Frank Fuller is mentioned a few times in there.

    There is also a ref. here: Monty s Marauders

    ...to the tanks of the 5th Troop of "B" Squadron: "Bandit" , "Brigand" and "Buccaneer

    And here: The Polar Bears
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019

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