4 Infantry Division Bren Carrier markings

Discussion in '1940' started by battleofassche, Feb 2, 2019.

  1. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    I was wondering if any members might know what the AF-II marking above the 5 ton sign, (on the right front), of this 4 ID bren carrier., designates. Or might know the regiment for this carrier.

    Thanks in advance for any information.

    4 ID bren carrier schelde.jpg
     
  2. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    My late father was in the 4th Reconnaissance Regiment of the 4th British Infantry Division.
    The Red Cheesecake emblem has a quarter slice taken out in clockwise order meaning 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Regiment.
    The one shown on this photograph indicates 1st Regiment.
    Regards
    Tom
     
  3. chrisgrove

    chrisgrove Senior Member

    The question was about the AF-11 marking, not about the Division marking. Now could you tell us what 4 regiments you are talking about? Regiments of what? Personally, I have only seen pics of, and descriptions of the divisional sign with either the top left, or top right quadrants displaced; I have understood that the sign changed in Sep 1944 from the 12-3 position to the 9-12 position, and the lower quadrants were never used.
    Chris
     
  4. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    Also of note, the caption on this picture indicates the location as Schelde Belgium (Escaut). 4 ID was in this area between May 19-22, 1940, with their Division HQ in Sweveghem.
     
  5. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

  6. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    No worries, thanks Tom and Chris for responding.
     
  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    It's not the typical style, but can we rule out a German 'beute' marking. claiming ownership or indicating salvage possibilities ?
     
  8. idler

    idler GeneralList

    As the standard infantry battalion should have had 10 carriers in the Carrier Platoon, the 'II' seems unlikely to be an '11'.
     
  9. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    Rich, yes I thought of that possibility and went through my collection of 15/19 KRH and 5 RIDG tanks/carriers with German re-markings on the beaches but no matches. AF also doesn't match any abbrevs for German units that I'm currently aware of...

    Here's the breakdown for the carrier platoon for an infantry regiment HQ from Philson.

    p108.jpg

    Perhaps the "II" refers to 2 section of 4 platoon.
     
  10. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Hmm... No. 1 section's No.1 carrier?
     
  11. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    I've racked my brains, Steve and have no other carrier photos with any sort of similar marking on the driver's armour. I even wondered if it had been taken over as an AoP or something, but nothing fits that I can think of. Is this any clearer ?

    Bren Carrier 4 Div AF11 (2).jpg

    This is a Universal from 4 Div and I think in this case that as the number is on a square dark background, it's probably an AoS, indicating 1 RWK so perhaps you can rule them out.

    1 RWK 4 Div.JPG

    Is this another variation on a bridging weight or is it the '3' from 2nd DCLI ? If so, another 10 Inf Bde battalion that you can rule out.
    T3298 4 Div Carrier (2).JPG

    DCLI again ?

    4th Div 2 DCLI Poss Carrier.jpg
     
    battleofassche likes this.
  12. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    Rich, thanks for the carrier photos, much appreciated! I did managed to get a decent scan of the 4 ID carrier (not from ebay) but nothing else was revealed. Seems we will have to wait for another carrier picture to solve this one.

    Cheers mate...
     
  13. chrisgrove

    chrisgrove Senior Member

    An interesting blurb from the IWM concerning the 4 Div emblem. But the main picture of the emblem does appear to be upside down, to judge by the hand written number. I have yet to see a version with the displaced quadrant in either lower position!

    And, by the time of the actual combat, (actually on 4 May) 1 RWK had been moved to 132 Brigade of 44 Home Counties Division (and 1/6 East Surreys moved in the opposite direction), though whether they ever had time to change the markings on their vehicles is probably unlikely.

    Chris
     
  14. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Given none of the other contemporary carriers carry bridge classifications - which ought to be '4' - and we have unit serials of 3 and 4, is it at all possible that the 5 is a unit serial on a non-regulation field? Seems unlikely but feel compelled to ask.
     
  15. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    Chris, I was aware of the move of 1 RWK (AoS 4) from 10 IB and their replacement by 1/6 ES, (AoS 17). I have several pictures of 1 RWK (visible AoS 4) abandoned carriers on the beaches. Just to clarify are you indicating the 1 RWK AFVs might have been used by 1/6 ES and still retained 1 RWR markings?

    Steve
     
  16. chrisgrove

    chrisgrove Senior Member

    Hi Steve
    The regimental history does not mention whether the equipment of the two battalions was swapped, but the distance to be moved was small (Wattrelos to Bailleul) and I guess each battalion would have retained their own vehicles. My guess is that neither bothered, as a priority, to repaint the markings on the vehicles, though they did have five days of 'peace' before the balloon went up.
    Chris
     
  17. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    It appears there is a clear number on the left fender. *7 or such.
     

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