7943775 Thomas WALKER, 3rd Hussars: Service Records

I have just received my Dad's war records and I understand some of the info there but certainly not all of it!

My dad Thomas Alexander Walker DOB 13/12/1910 Army number 7943775 joined up in 1941, he was in 3rd Hussars in Africa and Italy.
He didn't talk about the war much but one of the few things he told us was that his tank was destroyed in Italy and that he was the only one to survive, he said he was pulled out by Indian soldiers. He was badly wounded and was eventually sent back to the UK and discharged unfit for service. From his record I worked out that he was WIA on 21/7/44.
He talked about swimming in the dead sea, seeing the pyramids and picking oranges right off the tree in Italy and his disappointment at not seeing Rome.
Before the war he had been a baker and his arm wound made that impossible so after the war the army retained him as a compositor.
I would appreciate any help in understanding the record and putting a bit more flesh on the bone. Did he volunteer or was he called up? Which battles and actions did he take part in, where was he trained and what happened after he was wounded, which hospital/rehabilitation unit would he have gone to.
Any help would be appreciated as I am a novice to all this. Thanks Andrea

 

Andrea,

I am no expert at interpreting these Army forms and others with greater knowledge than me should be able to help you.

However, it does appear he was posted back to the 3rd Hussars 12-4-44 which was the day after 3rd Hussars received the following orders:
" On 11 April 1944, the Regiment received movement orders to travel to Alexandria, and thence to Italy departing Alexandria 20 April 44". 3rd Hussars Original War Diary

He was listed WIA (wounded in action) on 21-7-44. The following is a Map from The Galloping Third The Story of the 3rd The King’s Own Hussars, Hector Bolitho,1963, pg 291.

This should help you follow the route of 3 Hussars as you read the various war/personal diary's.




All the best for your research and please let me know if I can help.

Regards, Jim

 

Thanks Jim for taking the time to look at my thread. I have matched dad's WIA date to pages in Frank Wallbanks diary which is really interesting. I will check out the book you suggest, and take a look at the map you posted. I assume the 3rd Hussars original war diary is available at the National Archives in Kew. Do you know how large the unit would have been when they transferred to Italy? I assume there was a hospital in Italy where dad would have been treated before his journey back to the UK as he was wounded in July and didn't embark until October.
Thanks Andrea

 

Andrea,
The original war diary's are held at TNA Kew. (The National Archives). I live in NZ so I have used the services of fellow forum members Drew5233. & Gary Tankard. I would highly recommend them both and you could PM them for help once you have made 5 x posts. The transcribed war diary's of most RAC regiments are also available from the Tank Museum Library. They are easier to read but often they do not include all of the annexes and additional documents. You could email Jonathan.Holt@tankmuseum.org for more information.

3rd Hussars would have been approx 550-600 all ranks when they embarked for Italy. I am not sure of the actual establishment, and the actual numbers did vary month by month depending on attachments etc. The annexes to the original war diary's usually include the returns on actual numbers..

There is a very good website which covers all the details of military hospitals during the war. Have a look at scarletfinders.co.uk for the details.

I hope this all helps.
Kind regards, Jim

 

Hi Andrea

Apologies in advance for the long reply.

Most of the pages are fairly self-explanatory – however there seems to be a gap in the Statement of Services (see page 4 and page 2) – covering the period 24/7/41 to 22/6/45. The missing information would provide more detail about that period e.g. postings, courses attended, trade testing, embarkation to North Africa, return to UK etc.

I have made the following comments in an attempt to “flesh out” the contents of the records posted above.

Page1 - Enlistment Page
I note he was aged 30 when called up. As the war proceeded the call up age was progressively increased and it would appear that your dad was called up for service rather than volunteering.

This shows his initial posting, on enlistment, to 52nd (Heavy) Training Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps.

This also shows that he had previous 6 years TA service between 1927 and 1933 with 6/7th Battalion, Manchester Regiment, which was part of 42nd East Lancashire Division (a Territorial Army Division). He appears to have reached the rank of Corporal. Note - the Manchester Regiment was a specialised Machine Gun Regiment hence (M.G.) following his rank of Corporal. There should be separate a Service Record for his TA service.

Page 3 – Identification details
Trade Classification – shows civilian employment and how classified by the Ministry of Labour i.e. Packer is coded as ZM 217-5. This was to separate out those employed in a reserved occupation or in a job vital to the war effort.

Also shows that his medals were issued by the Medal Office on 8/3/49.

Page 4 (top) -
Confirms he was deemed to have been enlisted at Bovington Camp on 24/7/41 in the Rank of Trooper and posted to 52nd (Heavy) Training Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps. On 24/11/41 he was posted to 53 Training Regiment. Please note that there was often a delay between being called up and reporting to a Training Depot whilst intake numbers were finalised, although a 4 month delay seems a bit longer than usual.

Page 4 (lower) -
Summary of Non-reckonable and Reckonable service, split between home and overseas service.

Page 5 – Summary of postings as recorded on his central record card.
This shows more detail, albeit in abbreviated form. A couple of entries are unclear but it seems that his services was as follows -
24/11/41 – posted from 52 Training Regiment to 53 Training Regiment.
15/12/41(?) - posted to 46 Royal Tank Regiment.
2/5/42 – posting to 59 Training Regiment – Deleted Entry – i.e. that posting was Cancelled.
21/7/42 – posted to Xii list. (i.e. evacuated on medical grounds)
5/9/42 – posted to Xiv list. (i.e. unposted reinforcements awaiting posting or return to parent unit)
20/9/42 – posted to 8th Armoured Division.
30/11/42 – posted to 3 Hussars
20/12/43 – posted to Xii (Middle East Forces). (see above)
23/12/43 – posted to 3 Hussars.
6/4/44 - posted to Xii list. (see above)
12/4/44 - posted to 3 Hussars.
29/4/44 – transfer to BNAF.
21/7/44 - posted to Xii list. (see above)
21/7/41 – W.I.A.
10/10/44 – Disembarked UK.
11/10/44 – posted to X list.
1/10/44 – Embarked UK (belated entry).

Page 6 -
This is a summary of his personal details. The only thing of note is that it shows he was Trade Tested and mustered as a Gunner Mechanic, Group C, Class III w.e.f. 1/7/43 whilst with 3rd Hussars.

Again the missing(?) pages would help to fill in the "blanks".

Hope this helps
Steve

 

Hi Steve thank you so much for your detailed reply, it must have taken ages going through all those pages. As for the missing pages/information all I can say is that I scanned and uploaded everything I was sent. Is it common for pages to go missing from soldier's records? Is there anything I can do?
How could you tell that he was called up rather than volunteered? Before the war dad was very involved with a pacifist movement, some of whom went on to be conscientious objectors. So how he came to join up is of great interest to me. I assumed he had a change of heart when he saw what was going on but as he never told us anything about this part of his life we will probably never know.
The delay in his posting coming through is also a bit strange, could there have been discussions about the type of posting? One last question, do you know what the large stamped "V" means at the bottom of page 4?
Thanks for your help
Andrea

 

Andrea

Occasionally a page is not copied e.g. the missing is stuck to another one, or has been withdrawn in connection with a medical claim etc. You should contact whoever sent the records (National Archives or MoD) and ask them to check the file for any pages covering the missing dates.

I've assumed that he was called up due to the wording on both the attestation sheet and page 4 which appears to be common for those called up (similar to my dad). As stated above, men were gradually called up in age groups (i.e. 20-30, 31-40 etc). However I note from your latest comments that initially he was a conscientious objector which puts a different light on events. I believe (anecdotally) that as evidence of the camps became known this prompted a surge in volunteering rather that await call up papers and your dad may have decided to withdraw his objection to service as you have suggested.

Sorry but I'm afraid that I do not know the significance of the "V" stamp.

Steve

 

Hi,

There are no B103 forms in the file. They are the most helpful in tracking a man’s movements during his service. Some - but not all - details from the B103 (and other forms) were recorded on the attached B102 Central Index Form albeit in a shorthand form.

You have not been provided with his TA Service Record - he had served under a different army service number and ordinarily that number should’ve been used for his second period of service.

I would ask MOD/NA to search for the missing B103 and his make a separate search for his pre war TA service record (under his first army service number).

Some forum members have had some success in obtaining their relatives missing B103 but it could be that they have been lost since 1945 - originals were often sent to Ministry of Pensions, Blackpool post war after a claim had been made and weren’t returned.

Steve

 

Hi,
Again great input from everyone, lots for me to think about and chase up. I waited so long for these for records to come through and now I will have to try to chase up the missing information. Lets see how long this takes!
Just to clarify, I don't have any evidence that my dad was a conscientious objector. In 1938 and 1939 he was with a pacifist/socialist group, his best friend went on to be a CO. Dad was a great supporter of socialism and anti fascisms so in 1941 he could have decided that fighting Hitler and Nazism was more important than other considerations. Or he could simply have been called up!
On another mystery I am not sure why his occupation is 'Packer' on the forms before joining up he was a 'Tramp Preacher' and a baker in the community where he lived. The large stamped 'V' on page 4 is still an enigma.
Why didn't I ask him more questions when I could!
Thank again
Andrea

 

Hi Andrea,
It might be helpful if you try the Tracer Card option as well. These are available for RAC personnel on request from the Tank Museum Library and they cost GBP5.

They are an index card summary of postings and dates that were once held by "RAC Records". However, I am led to believe that they are not as detailed as the B103/B102.

Nevertheless, it may help to fill in the gaps and probably worth a try. I got my father's one and it helped me confirm his service with 3rd Hussars and the dates. I am still waiting for his Service Records in the meantime.

Best regards,
Jim

 

Thanks Jim I will look in to that. I have emailed the MOD about the B103 forms so I may be lucky. How long have you been waiting for your dad's records? I believe they have a back log due to Covid! As both our dads were in the 3rd Hussars they may have known each other,
At one stage we had a photo of the regiment in front of the pyramids, a bit like a school photo, unfortunately it has been lost somewhere along the line.
Do you know the significance of ' Barnet' I think it might be where he was discharged from.....was there a camp there?
Fingers crossed for your records
Andrea

 

Thanks Andrea, I hope you do get the B103 form as from what I have read, it will contain the most useful information you are likely to get.

I have only just applied for my father’s records from MOD, Glasgow. We no longer use cheques in NZ so it has been problematic for me and I have had to wait for an online option. I originally applied to MOD Bourne Avenue in 1985 and was provided with a letter which has a list of units he served in and the dates. However, I subsequently found some anomalies and omissions. (By the way these have been the subject of various threads on this site). Recently I tried asking MOD Glasgow for the actual copies of the source documents using that as the basis to get more information but that did not work. I then found out about Tracer Cards and that has filled in a lot more gaps and cleared up some of the anomalies. For example, it was only from his Tracer Card that I was able to confirm his service with 3rd Hussars as the MOD Letter had “3 H Battalion”.

Our fathers may have known each other and we may well never know for sure. My father joined the Royal Tank Regiment in 1938 and served on active service with 2 RTR in France, North Africa, and Burma. He then spent a year in India before joining 3rd Hussars on 3 September 1943 in the Middle East and subsequently in Italy before returning to the UK on 2 December 1944. After the war he served on with 5 RTR, 3 RTR and 6 RTR. There seems to be no clear reason as to why he ended up in 3rd Hussars other than maybe at that time, they were looking for experienced men to help rebuild the Regiment after El Alamein.

I have seen some photos of 3rd Hussars personnel on this site but sorry I cannot recall exactly where. The search facility is very good so I would recommend you type in the various unit titles e.g., 3 Hussars, 3rd Kings Own Hussars, 3 KOH, etc.

Sorry but I have no knowledge of Barnet in the context of discharge confirmation. However, it is signed and stamped by what looks like “for OIC (Officer in Charge), RAC Records “ therefore, it is possible that the RAC Records at that time could have been in Barnet. Just my guess, others may have more knowledge.

Best regards, Jim

 

Hi,

RAC Records Office was located in the Drill Hall, Barnet (sourced from list of record offices in POW list book WO392).

Steve

 

Jim it sounds like you have been on quite a journey if you started out in 1985! I waited nearly 2 years for dad's to come through which was long enough. I will check out on here for any photos as you suggest.
I hope Glasgow comes through for you.
All the best Andrea

 

So if Barnet refers to where the records were held, do you think he would have been discharged from somewhere else? Perhaps the B103 form or tracer card will help, should they ever arrive. Thank Andrea

 

I haven’t reviewed his service record but IIRC he was discharged as “unfit” after being wounded in action so his “posting” at the time of discharge was likely a “paper” posting at RAC Depot (Bovington?).

He was likely discharged from a hospital to his home address sometime before the actual paperwork was completed at the RAC record office - although I have seen some records where men (mostly shell shock cases) were in hospital at the time of discharge and remained there for further treatment post discharge.

Steve

 

I contacted the Tank Museum as suggested and they were really efficient, they found my dad's tracer card which I have posted here. Jess at the museum helpfully provided a transcription, all for £5 and in 24 hours! I understand most of it except the entry for H.2.8/ ????? Div . 20/9/42. I don't think it says when he was posted Africa or to Italy. I am still hoping form B103 might turn up.
While I was on the phone to her she suggested I might be interested in The 3rd Hussar's War Diary. She was able to send me a transcription of this diary for £10 and also the Diary of the Royal Tank Regiment Oct 39 -May 42. I need to spend some time looking over these as there is a lot of information to take in.

 

Hi,

I read it as HQ 8 Armoured Division?

https://www.britishmilitaryhistory....ites/124/2020/09/8-Armoured-Division-1942.pdf

Posed to Y list on repatriation to UK so he was likely receiving hospital treatment (possibly convalescing at home) until his June 1945 discharge date. He wasn’t posted to either RAC Depot or any RAC unit on repatriation.

Steve

 

Hi Andrea

I'm glad you were able to obtain further information from the Tank Museum.

Further to my post #5 above.

In light of Tullybrone's (Steve's) post immediately above, I have looked again at the penultimate entry on page 5. My apologies, it does in fact read -
"11/10/44 – posted to Y list".

I also concur that the entry "H.2.8/ ????? Div . 20/9/42" is HQ 8 Armoured Division. Again see my post #5 re page 5, entry 6.

Steve W

 

Thanks to you both, now I know what it says it jumps out at me. The women at the tank archives couldn't work it out, so great work. It also makes sense that it is HQ 8th armoured division with him ending up in the 3H as they provided troops to top up other regiment. Thanks for your help