Army Quarterly Lists WW2

Discussion in 'Research Material' started by Marie53, Apr 3, 2024.

  1. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Good morning and whilst searching the 1944 1st Quarter, I cannot understand the order of names: for example under a particular regiment and their T.A. the list of Lieutenants doesn't seem to follow any alphabetical order but perhaps one of the two dates mentioned:
    Scoggins, H.R., M.M., T.A. Res.
    (W.S/Capt. 14/2/41) (T/Maj. 14/02/41)
    24/8/39
    Watson, Hon. A. J., T.A. Res.
    (T/Capt. 22/4/41)
    24/8/39

    On the left of the name Scoggins, there is a sign of crossed swords. What does it mean?
    In all, there are six names all with the last date of 24/8/39 but they are not in an alphabetical order.
    Can someone please throw some light on why it should be so? Many thanks in advance
     
  2. MongoUK

    MongoUK Junior Member

    Attached Files:

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  3. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Brilliant and many thanks indeed. I have one other question and wonder if Units when completely their Monthly Strength List would apply a similar ruling of ranking? I don't understand why when several Lieutenants especially have all been commissioned on the same date are not listed alphabetically. Many thanks for any assistance as I am not very experienced in searching such things but need to do some research now. Have a nice day
     
  4. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    ...the examples of the Nominal Roll of Officers of 2 Suffolk in the Arakan and before being flown up to Imphal are attached. My research concerns Lieut. Duncan M.M. who appears to yo-yo up and down the list although the writer had to write or type out each time but one would have thought that there was a logic but apparently not. It may not have been the same redactor but I wonder why the names appear willy-nilly....many thanks in advance for any input.
     

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  5. MongoUK

    MongoUK Junior Member

    In my opinion, which has no research or foundation in any expertise...

    It looks to me like the field returns are more blocked to ranks and not necessarily to alphabetical.

    Could it be ordered by which company etc that each one is in? Could just be quickly copying the previous return and getting the order wrong?

    I think the main point is, the ordering doesn't really matter, it's just a record of who is present.
     
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  6. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    You are probably right but simply appeared strange to me. It could also be when the officers arrived in the Bn....who knows but I shall accept your suggestion and leave it at that.
     
  7. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Hi and I have another one of a 2 Suffolk officer :
    Menneer, K. C. (T/Maj. 15/5/41)
    24/8/39
    9/11/38
    I suppose that the date 24/8/39 was his previous rank of Capt and perhaps 9/11/38 when he was Lieut. Pretty rapid promotion all the same. What I thought I would find was when the officer was first commissioned as a 2 Lieut but perhaps I need to search elsewhere e.g. The London Gazette.
     
  8. Jimbo09

    Jimbo09 Active Member

    The date 24/8/39 seems to appear on the listing of many pre-war Territorials. (Possibly most, but I don’t know)
    I have asked elsewhere why this date and on what authority, but that is not yet resolved.

    What it does do is establish pre-war Territorials with a date that then pre-dates any wartime-enrolled Territorials, and it is my belief that date plays a big part in army seniority when all other things are equal.

    I think the chosen date was backdated sometime later as it doesn’t appear in army lists until a later date
     
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  9. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Many thanks Jimbo09 and all confusing to me really but I am sure that you are correct that between officers it was very important. I took the above example from the Army List 1944, The Suffolk Regiment, and on page 1423 there is another example under Regular Army Emergency Commissions:
    Henderson, K. E. J. (W.S./Lt. 25/12/40)
    T/Capt. 25/12/40
    12/11/39
    ....still not sure what W.S./Lt means but stranger he was promoted to T/Capt. on the same day....
    Is there any database of officers which shows there full names and date of birth for example? Many thanks in advance
     
  10. Jimbo09

    Jimbo09 Active Member

    W/S stands for War Substantive and is the base level for this officer.

    If he takes on a job that requires the rank of Captain he will become Acting Captain, and if after a period is still in a job requiring that rank, then becomes Temporary Captain. If he stops doing that job, then he will go back to his substantive rank.

    If I remember correctly, his substantive rank cannot be more than one step below his Temporary rank

    This is the reason why his W/S rank has the same date as his Temporary rank, as by holding the job of Captain for long enough, he goes from Acting to Temporary Captain, and his W/S rank cannot remain as 2nd Lieutenant, as that would be 2 levels below, so he gets a promotion of W/S rank the same day he becomes Temp Captain.
     
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  11. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Wow! Well explained! May I ask you a further piece of advice as I still find it difficult to understand the order in which names appear in various Army lists which I would assume follow seniority as far as possible. For example, on the Suffolk Nominal Roll, the Capt.Henderson, (admittedly T/Maj) appear on page 1423 of the attached Army List 1944 and in the middle column about a third of the way down...Apart from Alphabetically, why should Church, G.A.D. appear before him in the Army List apart from the last date of 22/10/39 is earlier than Henderson's 12/11/39? Obviously not all of the 2 Suffolk officers were from that regiment although quite a few were...but not everyone. The previous C.O. A.A. Ward who left in October 1943 doesn't appear any on the Army List as a Suffolk which I find a bit strange.
    Here are the attachements and since I have time on my hands, I am trying to understand why names appear is such and such an order...Many thanks in advance for any advice and no rush at all.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Jimbo09

    Jimbo09 Active Member

    You have got the first bit exactly right.
    If you look at the screenshot in post#2, you will see it describes the dates, and the last date is always the ‘present army seniority’.

    So, the officers listed in the army list will always be listed:
    First - the regulars by rank and by seniority.
    Second - the Territorials by rank and then by seniority.
    Third - Regular Army Emergency Commissions by rank and then seniority.

    those who share a seniority date do not appear to be listed alphabetically, and their temporary rank doesn’t seem to be considered either.
     
  13. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Morning Jimbo09 and again many thanks....I am getting there, I think...I see what you mean when you look at the few names above Henderson in the Army List and where the same Army Seniority is 15/10/39...I suppose the Army List no longer exists, or does it?
    When you mention Army seniority, what exactly do you mean? When they were first commissioned/enlisted?
    The CO of 2 Suffolks at Imphal up until the 18th/19th April 1944 was H.R. Hopking with a date of 1/8/38 and I assume means he became a Major in the Suffolks on that date. I had seen in the London Gazette that he came out of Sandhurst much earlier and what I was really hunting for the others and to show just how many years services these officers had...I had also noticed somewhere in the Gazette that he was born in 1900, so he was a 44 year old officer with 24 years with the Suffolks when our 26 year old father was wounded...
    I assume that there is no such database of dates of birth or dates when officers actually started their Army career?
    I have one last question about lists but concerns the OCTUs and the order of names given to the London Gazette when the men were commissioned....The LG replied to me that the printed the names actually as they had received them. Would that mean that there was some sort of examination and an order of results?
    Many thanks in advance and no rush..It's Monday after all! Have a nice day
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Jimbo09

    Jimbo09 Active Member

    I looked back to the army list of 1938 second half. My internet is useless today and I can’t upload screenshots.
    You can search army lists under National Library of Scotland.

    The layout is different, in that officers are not listed by regiment, but just by rank.
    Your man HRHopking is listed in column 638 (page 415), part of the ‘Gradation list of officers of the British Army’, under Majors:
    Hopking, Henry Richard, MBE Born 7/8/00, Suffolk R. 2-Lt 17/12/19. Lt.17/12/21. Adjt. 25/7/26 to 24/7/29. Capt. 28/12/32. Maj. 1/8/38.
    Staff Off. to Local Forces Trinidad (Adjt to Constabulary) (local Major 30/9/36 to 31/7/38), 21/8/36.


    he is listed among all the other Majors with the date 1/8/38

    In the same issue you can also find him in column 1232 (page 756) under ‘Forces of the Overseas Dominions and Colonies’ as Adjutant and Commanding Police Depot

    I don’t yet know enough about OCTU to answer the second part
     
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  15. Jimbo09

    Jimbo09 Active Member

    In the London Gazette that I looked at, 11/7/1941, the cadets are listed first by regiment, and then by army number. The new army number was issued to those who passed. This is from an Infantry OCTU, so many different regiments involved. I don’t know if the more specific OCTU (RA, or RE, or RASC) for example had any gradation within their listings.
     

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  16. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Many thanks Jimbo and last night I had a similar internet problem although I live in France! I managed to find most of those concerning Hopking but not when he was born so, perhaps I had seen that one under the NLS (wonder why they have them). I will look under them again as there are 36 2 Suffolk officers I'd like to look at more closely....It appears that Hopking spent a lot of his career more in a diplomatic/administrative roll so must have been surprised when told he was to become the commanding officer of 2 Suffolk on the 1st October 1943...Have a nice day and any thanks again!
     
  17. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Our father was commissioned from the 166 OCTU in February 1940 and here is the confirmation page extracted from the London Gazette....My "interpretation" is that if as always the regiments are arranged in order of seniority, I would assume that the men who came our first went off to the best regiments...If everyone was given a choice, it would have been chaos I believe....I haven't yet counted the number of cadets but only know our father had asked for the Black Watch or any other Scottish regiment (it was the BW who sent him there in September 1939...). Of the six sent off to Cardiff, one was killed in France in '44 (Stuart) while serving with the 4 Welch, a TA Bataillon based in NI.I. and where our father had been sent to in 1940 (and where he met our mother)...
     

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  18. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Good morning Jimbo09 and many thanks for your help here, very much appreciated. I think that there were only a few Career officers on the 2 Suffolks list so I will not be able to find many. Probably it is not worth trying to find them all anyway as whoever wrote up the monthly list had his system. I just thought that it being about officers he would take care to put everyone in correct seniority order as they are very particular about that sort of thing.
    I am awaiting a reply from the London Gazette about saving searches and will make do with that. Those Army Lists are difficult to understand for me and having downloaded them, it is extremely difficult in the pdf document to find the correct page. Think that I should spend my time otherwise but so glad to have made your acquaintence. Were you an officer? Have nice day
     
  19. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Good evening Jimbo09 and just to say that I made use of your 1938 book and found Hopkin's predecessor in 2 Suffolks, namely Maj A.A. Ward and bottom left of this page...He resigned his position on the 1st October 1943 and Hopking took over and have appeared to be his second-in-command at that time. Did Ward interrupt his army career at one stage adn started again? Have a nice evening
     

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  20. Marie53

    Marie53 Active Member

    Good afternoon and can anyone direct me to where I can find some guide as to how to correctly search one of the Army Lists for an officer, a regiment etc because I find it extremely difficult to understand the various Part and Volumes! They all look similar to me but obviously aren't yet I cannot find any guide when I Google. Many thanks in advance
     

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