New Resource British War Establishments - Volume Brit for British India Troops V 1.0

Aixman submitted a new resource:

British War Establishments - Volume Brit for British India Troops - Sorted by ascending table numbers of the distributed powers, i.e.: theatre commands.

Read more about this resource...

 

Hello,
This looks like a LOT of work! Great effort.

However, I’m not really clear how I can use it.
I can see the spreadsheets and what looks like different naming protocols for each WE, and dates and progressions.
Is there a way to search for a specific WE
For instance 1943 war diary for 1st Bn Cameronians in India says “Unit reorganised on special WE 214/1942”
How can I find this,
If I find it, what information am I getting from the spreadsheet
Does it point me to an actual document

 

Hello Jimbo,

Thank you.

And a good example as well.

I have to say that I am in the National Archives this week, and time is precious.


So only a short answer here, more next week. I will need more time to exclude possibilities.

At the moment, I cannot find any table number 214 dealing with an infantry battalion. As has been shown, not all war establishments have been retained.

Most probable, a war establishment seemed to be applied to the battalion that is "peculiar" to the command or theatre of war. It differs in some respects to the standard infantry battalion. There is no theatre war establishment for 1942 as this is before these numbers had to be written into the lower right-hand corner of the first page of the war establishments concerned (March 1944). Finding these numbers is depending on luck.

Once the war establishment is found, one could start searching. If it is a theatre war establishment (marked blue in the header of the volumes), the War Office number (marked green) has to be identified by the theatre volumes. If you found the War Office number, you can start searching instantly in the WO 24 files.

Or ask me.


More details next week.

 

If it helps,
This was them changing from being a motor battalion with Bren carriers, part of 50 Indian Tank Brigade to becoming Long Range Penetration Unit within 111 Indian Infantry Brigade wef 1 Apr 1943 Authority GHQ(I) letter 5911/5/A.G.4(b) of 16 Mar 42

 

Thank you, every detail will help. I have lots of information - but not all in my head ...

So don't suppose anything.

 

Hello Jimbo,

Here comes the analysis.

Since the result was not obvious, I spent the whole evening yesterday analysing and refreshing my forgotten knowledge of the Chindits. To anticipate: I can't present a result based on the details provided, either for the theatre numbers or for the War Office numbers. This may be due to the fact that war establishments are not completely retained or that other (not systematically researchable) sources (War Office letters and these things described in the main thread) were used. Nevertheless, I have researched the matter thoroughly from all sides on the basis of what is available.

A more precise presentation of the source with possibly further details and context could nevertheless be helpful.

I interpret your date for the authorisation letter "... of 16 Mar 42" as a typo for 1943.

Started with the fixed date 01.04.1943 and used my master table.

The table number 214 does not deliver useful results according to the specifications, neither for the theatre numbers nor for the War Office numbers.

For the Motor Battalion, that the 1 Cameronians were before:
Unless more specific war establishments exist, the standard for the Field Force applies. Specifics existed for:
- Volume VI, Middle East
- - Sudan Defence Force
- - Middle East (generally)
- Volume V, Home.
Because these are not considered, the standard for the Field Force applies: at this time II/231/1 - A Motor Battalion, effective (under that number, it existed already before under I/8 D/2) 15.09.1942 - 04.06.1943.

As this did not lead to any results, I approached the matter from the Chindits' side. There are 29 entries for "Special Force" (Chindits). The first promulgation was made on 22.12.1943, the only one for this year. There was no effective date before 18.09.1943. As 111th Indian Infantry Brigade seems to have been formed around 01.04.1943, there is a gap in authorisation which leads me to assume the measures mentioned above (War Office letters and other sources, not uncommon for "private armies" due to their nature).

The "proper" war establishments for Chindit infantry in Volume XI were:
- British Infantry Battalion (Special):
- - XI/251/1 & 315/1943: A.C.I. 26.04.1944; effective 25.10.1943 - 14.10.1944.
- - XI/251/2 & 18/BRIT/44: A.C.I. 21.03.1945; effective 14.10.1944 - 03.09.1945.
- Headquarters of British Infantry Brigade (Special):
- - XI/2/1: A.C.I. 10.05.1944; effective 25.10.1943 - 14.10.1944.
- - XI/2/2 & 16/BRIT/44: A.C.I. 28.03.1945; effective 14.10.1944 - 03.09.1945.
For the infantry, there were also:
- XI/250/1 & 307/1943: - British Infantry Brigade Defence Platoon (Special)
followed by
- XI/252/1 & Z-44: - British Infantry Brigade Assault Company (Special)
and
- XI/253/1 & 17/BRIT/44: - An Infantry Brigade Headquarters Defence Company (Special)

To make the research complete, there was only one more war establishment for "infantry battalion" in Volume XI (that not applied): Ceylon light infantry.

Perhaps (and hopefully) one of our Chindit-wise members has special sources.

For the moment, I suppose that

might be indeed a theatre number. But instead of becoming a "proper" war establishment in accordance with the rules, which was to be approved and promulgated by the War Office, the latter took an interim measure along the lines of "let's wait and see how it works in practice".

Nevertheless, this is a good example of the complexity of this topic.

 

Gulp! It’s complicated isn’t it

I am in two minds about the typo. The page is attached.
It mentions the year twice: in the summary (also initialed by adjutant - my father) and in the remarks.

my theory, before any consideration of a typo, was that this was a WE that had been put together based on the building of the first Chindit campaign (Longcloth).
The first group had been put together early summer 1942 as 77th Indian Infantry Brigade.
That group, including Wingate, were still in the jungle on 1st April 1943, having entered 8th Feb 1943.

Meanwhile General Slim was already starting to create 111th brigade, the second Chindit brigade. The Cameronians battalion commander Lt Col Gillespie had been informed 8th Mar.
So I had thought this WE might have been built for the original Chindit brigade and, nothing else being available the following year (and Wingate in the jungle), had been pushed on to 111th brigade to get them going. It might well have changed once plans firmed up. Change from four companies to two columns happened 1st July for instance

 

On a related matter, once second Chindits started (Operation Thursday), my father did not go with them into Burma but remained at, as he wrote it “Bde Rear HQ”, initially at Imphal, and then at Sylhet once the Japanese Operation U-Go became a threat to Imphal.

Frustratingly he does not say anything about what his job was, nor does his service record. However, he was a Temporary Major throughout this period - and to the end of the war - so I wonder if the WE quoted above might be able to shed some light.

so this brings me back to my second question: from your database, where does it point me to find out more details of this particular WE?

all the best

 

As this was referred to as a Special WE (at least I think it says that in the War Diary entry) it may have been produced locally and not printed in the same manner as the more run of the mill WEs. So as Wolfgang has noted above and covered in his epic work on the subject, the actual document itself may not have been retained. There were many WEs issued for units and HQs in the Indian Army, however these are not held at Kew, the WO24 series being particular to the British Army. I will have mentioned it in other posts but as far as I understand it, there are a few Indian Army WEs held at the British Library as part of their Oriental and India Office collections. I can offer no more than that I'm afraid and there is every possibility that my understanding is incorrect. If they do have any I've no idea whether it is only a handful of such documents or something more substantial.

Gary

 

Yes, it is.

Jimbo,

Tend so agree with you (1942). Thank you for the details.

As for your "second question": For reasons of space, no detailed information can be provided in my tables. I created these lists to find out what's available and what's not. Once you have found this out, you need to look at the details in the war establishments. That's what we do now.

As for XI/2/1 - Headquarters of British Infantry Brigade (Special), effective 25.10.1943 – 14.10.1944:
All ranks: 158
Officers: 14
The majors contained:
- Brigade major
- Brigade animal transport officer (major) (may be R.I.A.S.C.)
There is also a Deputy assistant quarter-master-general, listed below the brigade major and two staff captains, so could be theoretical either major or captain. I'm no specialist and hope a knowledgeable member can explain this correctly. The remainder of the officers is clearly fitted with a rank (1 brigadier, 1 colonel, 8 captains); and a chaplain is the twelfth.

As your father was an adjutant in a battalion, I tend to suppose he was the brigade major. Can you find details to confirm this?

This war establishment is held in TNA in WO 24/951, Copy-No. (sometimes called "page No.") 974; the document has 3 pages.
I could tell you some details as well ...

 

Thanks,

I’m inclined to think that he was not the brigade major. There are two reasons.
the first is that his (brief) notes describe their joining “111th Brigade under Joe Lentaigne. Brigade Major was Jack Masters, and I.O. was John Hedley.”
That was early 1943, and I don’t think that changed before the Chindits entered Burma. In Chindit order-of-battle listings Jack Masters (of 4th Gurkhas) is Brigade Major with HQ column - 48 column. Jack Masters went on to lead 111th brigade after Lentaigne was give overall command.
Second reason is that I think that the HQ Columns ( including the brigade Major) went into Burma and were located at the “strongholds”.

so perhaps I have picked the wrong WE description.

I think there was another rear HQ, further back and still in India, providing the immediate support to the columns. If my father was initially at Imphal and the Sylhet, then he was in the same location as Wingate’s headquarters - which would seem sensible, or maybe he was at Wingate’s HQ I just don’t know. (Wingate moved his rear HQ hurriedly from Imphal to Sylhet just before he died). It would seem sensible for a ‘Long Range Penetration’ group to have a support base at the place where the supply drops and reinforcement personnel are setting off from, and that this would be brigade based, rather than Division.

However, this perhaps might not fit into a conventional WE for an infantry battalion.
And as has been pointed out Special WE from India might not be fully recorded

Ah well

 

Hmmm,

you know something I don't know: your father's name. I suppose it is his signature under the war diary, but I cannot decipher it.

Now, you speak of

But you wanted me to look at a war establishment of a brigade

and "Headquarters of British Infantry Brigade (Special)".

XI/251/1 - British Infantry Battalion (Special) leaves in principle room for 5 majors: 1 second-in-command and 4 company commanders.

More possible options on "with the (Bde.) rear H.Q:" - don't really know where these units were located:
XI/840/1 - Force Headquarters, Long Range Penetration Group, A.C.I. 22.12.1943, effective 18.09.1943 – 03.09.1945, might be an option. The force has 553 all ranks, including 122 officers and several options for majors, 5 majors instructor alone in the training wing, and a camp commandant in the administrative staff.

XI/691/1 - Special Force Training and Experimental Wing, A.C.I. 10.05.1944, effective 25.10.1943 – 29.06.1945, consisting of headquarters, tactical group, weapon training group, two training teams, medical group and engineer group, has 252 all ranks including attached, including 20 officers, including seven majors (second-in-command and 6 to command the groups and teams).

Think we need more details ...

 

Sorry,
He was R.A. Cole-Hamilton, Temporary Major at end of 1943.

 

Yes, I asked for WE of a brigade, and that is still the point of focus. My bad in #11

I think XI/840/1 has distinct possibilities although I’m guessing Force headquarters would be at Divisional level.

XI/691/1 also has possibilities. He taught at an OCTU (166) earlier in the war. Not because he knew anything specific, but purely because he was a teacher before call-up.

I so much appreciate the help and advice. I know that in the end I’m not going to be able to find him specifically in any of these WEs, but to have some options of what he might have been doing, and that in itself helps to build around the story of his war.
Thanks

 

Surely, despite the "specific" name; perhaps even somewhat above.
1. Wingate was Major-General and listed in the WE as that; even the deputy commander had that rank.
2. 6 Brigades.
3. The size of this headquarters exceeds that of the standard infantry division of the field force (II/116/2) by three and a half times.

Really glad to help you. Even if we will not find him "exactly", you (and me) get a better idea of the Chindit background by this research.

Did you apply for his file?
Meanwhile, searching on with your new details, I found your post "Blackpool" and the 111th Indian Infantry Brigade
Hadn't read it before.