Comet tanks - fault

There follows a chronology of events during this period.

RH = Regimental History (The Story of the 23rd Hussars, 1946)
WD = War Diary
Comments [in brackets] are my own.

RH p.183
The Regiment remained at Usselsteijn till November 28th [1944], when we joined the Echelon in comparative comfort in Deurne, where they been briskly bombed a few days earlier. Here we learned, to our great delight, that our brigade was to be the first to be equipped with the new Comet tank and that better still, we were to withdraw to Belgium to carry through the re-fitting and instruction.

WD
December 1st to 10th - Regiment at Deurne, 6520.

WD
December 10th to 13th - Regiment at Geldrop, 4818.

WD
December 14th and 15th - Regiment moved to rest area Ypres for re-equipment. Disposal of Shermans 75s to 2nd ARG, Brussels.

RH p.185
Our installation at Ypres was leisurely and sedate. Although an ambitious six weeks' training programme existed on paper, taking little account of the festive season, the fact that the new tanks had not arrived and that all, excepting a few of the old Shermans, had been dropped off at Brussels, encouraged lively plans for Christmas and a natural instinct to make the best of superabundant hospitality.

WD
December 16th to 19th - At Ypres.

WD
December 16th - 2 Other Ranks missing, 1 Other Rank wounded [no fighting reported that day]. 1 Cromwell IV and 2 Comets 1A received [first arrivals].

WD
December 20th 15:00 hours - Regiment moved on wheels to Brussels to collect tanks. 7 Shermans and 4 Honeys move on tracks under Captain Blackman.

RH p.186
It seemed hardly credible that the only Armoured Brigade on the whole of the British front which had been withdrawn for rest and refitting with the latest British tanks would have to be called upon [for the Ardennes battle].

[Regiment takes part in the 'Battle of the Bulge']

WD
January 14th - Regiment move to re-begin re-equipment at Ypres. Re-disposal of Shermans 75s at 2 ARG, Brussels.

WD
January 15th - 10 Comets 1A received.

RH p.201
By January 20th [1945], the Regiment had slithered its way back to Ypres along icy roads, and the "hireling" Shermans had been handed back in Brussels without regret.

WD
January 21st - Celebrate Christmas.

RH p.201
Our Christmas fare had been stored in Ypres pending our return, and everything was made ready for a bumper celebration on January 24th.

RH p.201
When feverish heads had cooled, training began. The first Comets arrived and were received with approbation.

WD
January 25th - 12 Comets 1A received.

WD
January 31st - 5 Comets 1A and 1 lorry, 3 ton received.

[From now until March 14th, Comets 1, 1A and 1B were received, usually in ones or twos, rarely in threes or fours].

RH p.201
The Regiment was fully equipped and trained with Comet tanks and on March 14th, for the second time, we moved out of Ypres to do battle.

WD
March 14th - 1 Comet 1A received. Regiment moved to Veerle, near Louvain, to rejoin and concentrate with the 11th Armoured Division.

WD
March 24th - 4 Comets 1A disposed of.

WD
March 26th - 3 Comets 1A disposed of.

[On March 28th the Hussars crossed the Rhine into Germany].

 

WD
March 24th - 4 Comets 1A disposed of.

WD
March 26th - 3 Comets 1A disposed of.

[On March 28th the Hussars crossed the Rhine into Germany].

So I guess one question is why these 7 Mk1a Comets were disposed of. Also there appears to be no comments about fixing faults of any type. I would have thought that something as significant as the whole Comet fleet being 'operationally unfit' (ref: the 21AG report) just before the Rhine crossing would have at least earned a mention in the War Diary even if indirectly and no matter how brief. This gets curioser and curioser.....

I wonder what, if anything, it says in the War Diaries of 3RTR, 2F&FY, 29AB or even the 11AD itself ?

 

Thanks for the war diary and regimental history extracts.

The last document I have seen is WO194/1097 entitled: "Mechanisation Experimental Establishment No.A 304 ( B ) (First Interim) Comet Reliability Trials".

This states that the authority to carry out the trials was dated 10 Dec 45, and that reliability on road and desert was to be tested.

"Comet 1B WD No. T 335743 has now completed 1154 miles, consisting of 111 miles before receipt, 199 miles road and 844 miles cross country, making a total test mileage of 1043. The vehicle arrived at MEE on 28 Nov 45, by rail, straight from the ship and damaged....

At 111 miles the vehicle was fully serviced, the preservative engine oil changed and damage due to shipment made good. It was noted on this check that there were 113 plates in each track. As 114 is the number of plates in a new track it was presumed that a plate had been removed before arrival at MEE, but no record is shown in the vehicle documents."

There were no major defects. " There were no gear box or final drive defects except for a slight oil leak at the bottom of the Left Rear Final Drive Casing. This was noticed at 495 miles and kept under observation. As it did not worsen, no further action was taken."

 

"Comet 1B WD No. T 335743 ."

T335743 looks a familiar number; I'm sure it is preserved somewhere (Bovington or Duxford?.....will check my files later).

 

There is one more number. After the "..." in my last post the report states: " For a description of similar damage to Comet 1B WD No T 335705, see MEE Report No A. 304 ( A ) "

 

I would have thought that something as significant as the whole Comet fleet being 'operationally unfit' (ref: the 21AG report) just before the Rhine crossing would have at least earned a mention in the War Diary even if indirectly and no matter how brief. This gets curioser and curioser.....

It is strange - and, of course, no mention of the fitters stuck in Armentieres for umpteen weeks.

I spoke to Dad over the weekend but he was unable to add much to his original story. He did mention another firm - Hoffman's - though couldn't be sure if they were involved during this time. No tensioner wheels were replaced and he does not recall any problems with the Comet gears. The fitters were not informed why the bearings had to be replaced.

I asked him about the 'disposed of' Comets but he couldn't explain it (indeed, he was surprised).

 

Lets call it a.........

Stock Footage - British Comet tank slides down a forty feet cliff as it undergoes tests in England.

 

T335743 looks a familiar number; I'm sure it is preserved somewhere (Bovington or Duxford?.....will check my files later).

T335220, formerly T335743, is at Bovington. C Squadron, 3 RTR according to its markings.

 

T335220, formerly T335743, is at Bovington. C Squadron, 3 RTR according to its markings.

Knew I'd seen it somewhere. It's supposedly marked up as Bill Close's tank but markings are completely wrong (Bill wasn't even in C Squadron to best of my knowledge; someone is now guaranteed to say he was!).

T335743 aka T335220 is the Bovington runner and is used in most of their tank action days etc so at least it's fixed now!

 

No tensioner wheels were replaced and he does not recall any problems with the Comet gears. The fitters were not informed why the bearings had to be replaced.

I asked him about the 'disposed of' Comets but he couldn't explain it (indeed, he was surprised).

All of this is continuing to throw doubt on the credibility of the 21AG Report and putting weight behind Grimmy's Dad's account. Probably the 21AG report should have said:

....All formations were fully equipped several days before the commencement of the operation, except for the Comet tanks of 29 Armoured Brigade which were reported operationally unfit owing to defects eventually attributed to the early design tensioner wheels. In the meantime Arrangements were made with the War Office to provide new type wheels bearings which were flown to the theatre in first priority air freight direct from the factory. Each day's consignments were collected under brigade REME arrangements and fitted to the tanks within seven days in time for the operation.

 

I have always found War Diaries to be of very limited value. On the other hand, the recollections of Grimmy's father are of great interest, as are all veteran's accounts.

There seem to be at least five events involving drivetrain problems revealed by the four documents seen at Kew and live accounts: something major at 100 miles affecting all Comet tanks, instructions to replace parts of the drivetrain as then existing in the field, replacement of original gears with gears from stock of a different design, change of design of gears to increase size, withdrawal from service of the first examples ( which might be for a different reason.)

The distribution lists on the reports are difficult to fathom from the bare initials but there are no active Army units listed. All of these "drastic" changes could be taking place in a discrete area away from active units.

I am a little suspicious as to why the metallurgist's report has to be a "review" of two reports, from two laboratories. I think the business of too much phosphorous is marginal.

The report suggests that the pinion gives way first and the damage to the gearwheel is caused by the damaged pinion.

Another fact given in books on tanks is that "Birmingham Carriage & Wagon" were the original "parents" for the project to develop the Comet, but that responsibility was transferred to Leyland in May 1943. This may have some bearing on sub-contract arrangements.

So far as T335743 is concerned there are photographs on the file of parts and gears and the complete tank.

 

.

So far as T335743 is concerned there are photographs on the file of parts and gears and the complete tank.

Is it possible to post the photo of the 'complete tank' T335743 please; might answer a few other questions re time frame etc. Is the photo dated? and what sort of Tensioner Wheel is shown?

 

SDP,

I am sorry but the photographs are in very slick cellophane wrappers and all I got was a reflection of the lighting at Kew. As previously stated, it was very busy and the archivists probably would not have had the time to accede to any request to remove the photos from the files.

I am sure that there are more relevant files at Kew. There are files with "branch" reports on vehicles, lists of vehicles at active army units on a month by month basis. It is a question of putting the right search term into the catalogue. The Kew catalogue is about to change to a new version which they say will give better service.

 

SDP,

I am sorry but the photographs are in very slick cellophane wrappers and all I got was a reflection of the lighting at Kew. As previously stated, it was very busy and the archivists probably would not have had the time to accede to any request to remove the photos from the files.

I am sure that there are more relevant files at Kew. There are files with "branch" reports on vehicles, lists of vehicles at active army units on a month by month basis. It is a question of putting the right search term into the catalogue. The Kew catalogue is about to change to a new version which they say will give better service.

No problem. Your information is brilliant! I know someone who is going to Kew next week. Which file does he need to ask for? Any idea what level of detail is shown in the 'lists of vehicles at active army units on a month-by-month basis'? Any chance this will show Comet 'T' numbers?

 

SDP,

Thanks for the bouquet. Your friend could try the following, which is what I should have said with reference to "active army units": I meant to distinguish the design department at home.

The file on T 335743 is WO194/1097.

I do not know what the following files contain but they appear to be promising in your search for "T" numbers.

Monthly lists are variously described.

WO205/637 is "Daily armoured fighting vehicle states 1944 June/July."

The next file WO205/638 is "Armoured fighting vehicles and RA equipment states 1944 Aug/Oct"
WO205/639 as above for 1944 Oct/Nov
WO205/640 " 1944 Nov/1945 Jan
WO205/641 " 1945 Jan/Feb
WO205/642 " 1945 Feb/Mar

Another possibility is WO219/3048: Daily reports of discharges in Continental ports of personnel vehicles & stores.

Another possibility seeems to be WO194/212: Volumes of Collected Branch Reports on fighting vehicles. Search for this and "browse from here" for other files in the series.

For more files, search for "vehicle" at Kew rather than "tank", limited by year helps.

Good hunting.

 

Papiermache: thanks again.

 

SDP,

No need to reply to this but WO279/111 and WO/279/119 are "Comet AFV1: handbook" and "Comet AFV1: Workshop Manual". Using the search term "AFV" for "armoured fighting vehicle" will bring up interesting possibilities at Kew.

Browsing through the files in WO194 brings up a mass of possibilities for those interested in armoured fighting vehicles.

One of my favourites, although I shall probably not order it, is from the year we last won the World Cup ( and I broke my ankle on an Army assault course whilst on summer camp with the C.C.F., so watched the match in hospital),1966, which is: WO194/1977:

"Simulation of a four wheeled military vehicle on an analogue computer." Is that a slide rule and a bit of plastic ?

 

O god no, nothing THAT primitive LOL

Analog computer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Quite right. Perhaps I should look at the file, although I will not understand it.

Two books which are of interest in the field of tank production are "Rude Mechanicals" by A.J. Smithers (1987} (ISBN 0-85052-7228) and "Death By Design" by Peter Beale (1998) (ISBN 0-7509-0802-5).

A.J. Smithers " was born in 1919 and educated at Dover College. He served with the 4th Buffs(TA) in which he was commissioned in 1937 and later with the B.E.F. in France. Subsequently he served in West Africa, India and Burma and at the end of the war he was with the H.Q. 21 Army Group (D.A.A.G. War Crimes) from 1945-1946. He left the army in 1946 and took up the study of Military History."

He says of his "Sources": " By far the greatest part of the material for this book can be found among the archives of the RAC Tank Museum at Bovingdon Camp. The bound Minutes of the Tank Board, The Reports of the Purchasing Mission in the United States and the Report on Armoured Fighting Vehicles in The Mediterranean Theatre hold a mass of information."

Peter Beale "served with the 9th Battalion Royal Tank Regiment from 1943 to 1945 as a troop leader in a sabre squadron. He was wounded twice during the campaign in NW Europe."

His sources of primary documents " are the Tank Museum Library at Bovington and the Public Record Office at Kew....The search for primary documents at the PRO was greatly helped by a "Guide to Sources in the PRO Relating to Armoured Warfare and the Mechanisation of the British Army" prepared by Mr. A.J. (Tony) Williams of the PRO staff, and was available as an unpublished document at the Reference Desk. Many documents were accessed and consulted, principally from the letter-codes AVIA,CAB,PREM and WO."

Neither book gives detailed footnotes and references, and neither book refers to the early problems with bearings and gears encountered in the Comet. They both refer to the Comet as being a (rare) success and that tank crews were pleased with the machine.

 

An interesting extract from the IWM collection:

Catalogue number 19097
Subject period Second World War
Production date 1999
Alternative Names
object category: IWM interview
Creator IWM (Production company)
Hayes, Doug (interviewee/speaker)
Hart, Peter M (recorder)
Category sound.

British trooper served with 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry in GB and North West Europe, 1943-1945.

REEL 9 Recollections of period at Ypres, 1/1945-3/1945: relationship with Belgian civilians; tank firing range at Gravelines; charactersitics of Comet tank; story of parking Comet in warehouse and warning against revving up engine from Rolls Royce representatives; initial gear box problems; question of maintaining Rolls Royce Merlin engines; eerie atmosphere on night guard duty; cat; Sunday ceremony; Menin gate ceremony; front line role on transfer to A1 Echelon, Headquarters Sqdn; issue of escape packs; role driving ammunition lorry. Recollections of advance into Germany, 3/1944-5/1944: driving across pontoon bridge over Rhine; role of advanced troops; persona morale action at Teutoberger Weld,

'Warehouse' or workshop I wonder.