Can anyone one please tell me which part of the Holocaust is it that these deniers dispute, as mentioned in a previous post i just dont get it, is it the whole thing or certain parts?
Most will deny that there was ever a plan for the mass execution of Jews, that the exterminations within gas chambers never happened and so on. All pretty senseless arguments.
What revisionists and skeptics are saying, is that the the official Jewish version of the so called "holocaust" is nonsense. There was no systematic extermination of six million Jews, either planned or otherwise, and there were no homicidal gas chambers. Simple as that. The question you have to ask yourself is, are they right? And if not, why not?
Isnt the arguement around this that there is overwhelming eveidence to prove it, and very little if any to prove against it? is the evidence from victims nazis themselves film photographs witnesses official records mean nothing?, i think the thing that clinches it for me is that these people could quite easily believe in "God" or something representing God, but would have never seen , heard from any who has seen , seen photos or films on God, but will believe in God without question.
What revisionists and skeptics are saying, is that the the official Jewish version of the so called "holocaust" is nonsense. There was no systematic extermination of six million Jews, either planned or otherwise, and there were no homicidal gas chambers. Simple as that. The question you have to ask yourself is, are they right? And if not, why not? Nick is quite right, your comment of the "Official Jewish version..." There is no official jewish version there is just 1 single fact, that is it did happen and the evidence for that is overwhelming. p.s you heading for being banned again Hengist
the irony of all this is that there has been a documentary called Holocaust on THC produced by the German State, what more has to be done here? do they need Hitler himself to say it happened? even then these morons would say he had been forced to say whilst in prison, i dont think there will ever be a day when they hold there hands up and say"well i didnt want to believe it, but your right it did happen"
Isnt the arguement around this that there is overwhelming eveidence to prove it, and very little if any to prove against it? is the evidence from victims nazis themselves film photographs witnesses official records mean nothing?, i think the thing that clinches it for me is that these people could quite easily believe in "God" or something representing God, but would have never seen , heard from any who has seen , seen photos or films on God, but will believe in God without question. Well that is the crux of the matter Nick; and the fact is that there is absolutely NO proof that the holocaust happened as described,whereas there is ample proof that it COULDN'T have done so. If something couldn't have happenened, then it didn't! No doubt Lee will forthwith ban me from the forum, because he won't appreciate my throwing of my hundred pound spanner of truth into his moribund holocaust works. So if you are open-minded enough to want to learn more, then feel free to email me.
Well that is the crux of the matter Nick; and the fact is that there is absolutely NO proof that the holocaust happened as described,whereas there is ample proof that it COULDN'T have done so. If something couldn't have happenened, then it didn't! No doubt Lee will forthwith ban me from the forum, because he won't appreciate my throwing of my hundred pound spanner of truth into his moribund holocaust works. So if you are open-minded enough to want to learn more, then feel free to email me. Hengist, in reply to your offer of learning more about how the holocaust didnt happen doesnt appeal to me at this stage, and this is because i havent heard an arguement for it yet, all i hear(not neccessarily from you) is more anti semetic rubbish thrown my way as means of a discussion, i know i could never see things from your perspective because i know if i did i would become someone i and people around me would hate
There is actually a great deal of historical evidence and none of the alternatives put forward by deniers has ever stood up to scrutiny. If you are truly open minded, then you will read some of the published works of respected mainstream historians.
Hengist, in reply to your offer of learning more about how the holocaust didnt happen doesnt appeal to me at this stage, and this is because i havent heard an arguement for it yet, all i hear(not neccessarily from you) is more anti semetic rubbish thrown my way as means of a discussion, i know i could never see things from your prospective because i know if i did i would become someone i and people around me would hate Nick, you're on the wrong track here. Neo-Nazis are not looking towards a debate, because there is nothing to debate. They say the Holocaust did not happen and that the Jews are a vast race of lying, money-grubbing, filthy, caftan-wearing crypto-Communist bankers who invented the whole Holocaust myth to squeeze money out of deserving Aryans to fund the existence of Israel in order to enable Satan himself to take over the planet. There isn't much about that proposition to debate except how Jews can be Communists and capitalists at the same time. In any case, "deniers" don't really want to "deny" the Holocaust. They're fascinated and obsessed with it. The Holocaust proves to neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers and other racists that they are indeed connected to something so powerful, so immense, so dominating, that it could sadistically murder millions of people, and not as a series of random or casual killings, but as an organized, bureaucratic, well-oiled operation, replete with rake-offs and corruption for those operating it. We see that today's neo-Nazis and deniers are marginalized members at the fringes of society. They are folks who believe they have been denied what they think they are entitled to by virtue of being white and living in a First-World country, regardless of their education levels and personal or professional abilities and skills. It's no wonder that members of these organizations usually wrap up their education in the middle of high school, and merely regard school as a place where they were hassled by black students, failed by Jewish teachers, and ignored by hot girls. But they still believe that they are entitled to live like Madonna. Or Brad Pitt. Or Alex Rodriguez. They're annoyed that they can't get high-paying jobs. And that the low-paying jobs they're qualified for are given to immigrants who are willing to take the lowest pay imaginable. We live in a complex world that offers complex answers to difficult questions, an sometimes no answer at all. Neo-Nazis live in a simpler world: it's all a conspiracy. There are many versions of the conspiracy. I've read their material. From the 1950s until the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russians were about to conquer the white race. After that, it was the New World Order. The Clintons. The multi-national corporations. But despite the disguises, it's always the same conspiracy. The conspiracy of Jews, as outlined in "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," plotting and planning the destruction of the white race through various and sundry satraps. However, the folks who hook up with this stuff, as I say, are at the margins of society. An interesting thread I've read about their organizations and people is how frail they are...William Pierce's farm of neo-Nazis was riddled with paranoia and mistrust, the belief that everybody else, including Dr. Pierce, was a federal agent. After the Oklahoma City bombing, members bailed out or buried or burned their literature and materials. Membership is made by stealing from each other. These organizations suffer more internal fights and backbiting than Machiavelli's Italy, often with disaffected leaders pleading guilty to various crimes, or recanting their racist views to the Southern Poverty Law Center (or in the case of David Irving's latest arrest, admitting through their legal mouthpiece that they were wrong about the Holocaust), or just diving for cover. The leaders are cynics, addicted to the process of organization and confrontation...which is as far as they can go...slogans, demonstrations, publicity stunts. Those are the leaders. The followers are sadder. Coming from the chaos of poverty-stricken America (or Britain, or Germany, or France), the usual broken home, they regard themselves as being straws that could crumple in the nearest wind. A lot of their statements about the Holocaust myth being about to fall apart is a projection of that inner fear. They see their whole white-race existence as about to fall apart, them with it, They see themselves as fighting a last-ditch battle to save themselves and their mythical race. So here's the key...by identifying with the Nazis in their peak power, they wrap themselves up in an ego-boosting mantel to make themselves feel more important than they are. They are no longer a bunch of skinny, acne-pimpled, skinheaded, overheated teenagers in US Army surplus greens yelling old Nazi slogans. They think that by dressing up and acting like that, they are suddenly SS Hauptsturmfuhrers, they are important. Suddenly they are like the SS men of Europe, striding across French cities and Polish towns in a shiny black uniform with white gloves, a hot blonde on the arm, dispensing brutality and bonhomie at will, with power over millions. Able to settle old scores. Able to "requisition" whatever they want. Able to murder hundreds and thousands, and doing so. Objects of respect, fear, and sex...things they are not in real life. Being connected to an organization that powerful empowers neo-Nazis. They really don't deny the Holocaust. They really don't believe it didn't happen. That's why they don't bother to provide a coherent alternate narrative of what happened...how the conspiracy came into existence, who did it, where, and how. Furthermore, if the Nazis did not kill millions of people, did not exercise this power, these young bravos would find it boring and dull. One of Nazism's major credos was confrontation of its perceived enemies, as we know. It built up power, flaunted it, and used it. If all Nazism had done was to build Autobahns and stock German forests with deer, it would hold no attraction for these folks. The Holocaust empowers those who have no power at all. It made the hoodlum, the criminal, the thug, the bully, the sadist, the lunatic, the ideologue, the demented scientist -- people that most societies abhor -- into rulers of the state. The real aim is to change the narrative of the Holocaust. The neo-Nazis want to turn the Holocaust from being a horrific act of deliberate and systematic genocidal murder and kleptomania into a necessary cleansing of humanity. Note that the neo-Nazi and denier explanations focus on the Jews being evil and conspiratorial, being thieves and liars. It is to make them into villains, menacing the white race. The Holocaust will be re-told by the neo-Nazis, in their imagined future, as being a judicial act of capital punishment, ordered by law and an outraged Aryan people against a sub-human race of thieves and conspirators, who got what they deserved. But they can't say that in today's society...or tomorrow's...or next week's. They know that to spout such ideas is to gain them contempt, ostracization, sneering, ridicule, and private and public harassment. They may gain confrontation -- they absolutely want to have confrontation, which gives them a sense of power over others -- but it does not gain them converts. So the neo-Nazis have to go on prattling about Holocaust denial. They say it didn't happen. Nazism bore no malice and did not harm Jews. hitler was their best friend. The Holocaust is all lies. The whole thing is a conspiracy. The Jews are really the evil ones, and they should have all been killed. But the Nazis, being wonderful people, did not. That approach gains supporters, particularly among the young minds described above. And to gain the attention of supporters, the neo-Nazis have to show that they're more than just a bunch of angry racists, hooking back Brewski, listening to Panzerfaust CDs, whining about Jews and blacks, re-reading old copies of the "National Vanguard," and reliving the previous demonstration with the photo album (with the incidents becoming increasingly lurid in the telling). Confrontation makes them real. Confrontation makes them think they're alive. Confrontation gets reactions from the public...furious Communists, annoyed cops, tearful Jews, fascinated reporters with TV cameras. They thread the needle..."The Holocaust never happened, but the Jews got what they deserved." So there is no debate. These folks only seek confrontation. And since they have no new ideas, they just spout the same old discredited garbage. I do have a question for these guys...have any of them actually read "Mein Kampf" cover to cover? Not even Goebbels and Goering did that.
There is actually a great deal of historical evidence and none of the alternatives put forward by deniers has ever stood up to scrutiny. If you are truly open minded, then you will read some of the published works of respected mainstream historians. I agree 150 percent...especially when you read the works of real engineers and chemists tearing apart the ill-educated Fred Leuchter's garbage. But this isn't about reality. Or facts. Or, really, even Hitler...this is about permanent 15-year-old kids trying to gain attention by saying dirty words at the family dinner table. I have another question for Hengist...when do you plan to move out of your parents' basement? In time for your 45th or 50th birthday?
Nick, you're on the wrong track here. Neo-Nazis are not looking towards a debate, because there is nothing to debate. They say the Holocaust did not happen and that the Jews are a vast race of lying, money-grubbing, filthy, caftan-wearing crypto-Communist bankers who invented the whole Holocaust myth to squeeze money out of deserving Aryans to fund the existence of Israel in order to enable Satan himself to take over the planet. There isn't much about that proposition to debate except how Jews can be Communists and capitalists at the same time. In any case, "deniers" don't really want to "deny" the Holocaust. They're fascinated and obsessed with it. The Holocaust proves to neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers and other racists that they are indeed connected to something so powerful, so immense, so dominating, that it could sadistically murder millions of people, and not as a series of random or casual killings, but as an organized, bureaucratic, well-oiled operation, replete with rake-offs and corruption for those operating it. We see that today's neo-Nazis and deniers are marginalized members at the fringes of society. They are folks who believe they have been denied what they think they are entitled to by virtue of being white and living in a First-World country, regardless of their education levels and personal or professional abilities and skills. It's no wonder that members of these organizations usually wrap up their education in the middle of high school, and merely regard school as a place where they were hassled by black students, failed by Jewish teachers, and ignored by hot girls. But they still believe that they are entitled to live like Madonna. Or Brad Pitt. Or Alex Rodriguez. They're annoyed that they can't get high-paying jobs. And that the low-paying jobs they're qualified for are given to immigrants who are willing to take the lowest pay imaginable. We live in a complex world that offers complex answers to difficult questions, an sometimes no answer at all. Neo-Nazis live in a simpler world: it's all a conspiracy. There are many versions of the conspiracy. I've read their material. From the 1950s until the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russians were about to conquer the white race. After that, it was the New World Order. The Clintons. The multi-national corporations. But despite the disguises, it's always the same conspiracy. The conspiracy of Jews, as outlined in "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," plotting and planning the destruction of the white race through various and sundry satraps. However, the folks who hook up with this stuff, as I say, are at the margins of society. An interesting thread I've read about their organizations and people is how frail they are...William Pierce's farm of neo-Nazis was riddled with paranoia and mistrust, the belief that everybody else, including Dr. Pierce, was a federal agent. After the Oklahoma City bombing, members bailed out or buried or burned their literature and materials. Membership is made by stealing from each other. These organizations suffer more internal fights and backbiting than Machiavelli's Italy, often with disaffected leaders pleading guilty to various crimes, or recanting their racist views to the Southern Poverty Law Center (or in the case of David Irving's latest arrest, admitting through their legal mouthpiece that they were wrong about the Holocaust), or just diving for cover. The leaders are cynics, addicted to the process of organization and confrontation...which is as far as they can go...slogans, demonstrations, publicity stunts. Those are the leaders. The followers are sadder. Coming from the chaos of poverty-stricken America (or Britain, or Germany, or France), the usual broken home, they regard themselves as being straws that could crumple in the nearest wind. A lot of their statements about the Holocaust myth being about to fall apart is a projection of that inner fear. They see their whole white-race existence as about to fall apart, them with it, They see themselves as fighting a last-ditch battle to save themselves and their mythical race. So here's the key...by identifying with the Nazis in their peak power, they wrap themselves up in an ego-boosting mantel to make themselves feel more important than they are. They are no longer a bunch of skinny, acne-pimpled, skinheaded, overheated teenagers in US Army surplus greens yelling old Nazi slogans. They think that by dressing up and acting like that, they are suddenly SS Hauptsturmfuhrers, they are important. Suddenly they are like the SS men of Europe, striding across French cities and Polish towns in a shiny black uniform with white gloves, a hot blonde on the arm, dispensing brutality and bonhomie at will, with power over millions. Able to settle old scores. Able to "requisition" whatever they want. Able to murder hundreds and thousands, and doing so. Objects of respect, fear, and sex...things they are not in real life. Being connected to an organization that powerful empowers neo-Nazis. They really don't deny the Holocaust. They really don't believe it didn't happen. That's why they don't bother to provide a coherent alternate narrative of what happened...how the conspiracy came into existence, who did it, where, and how. Furthermore, if the Nazis did not kill millions of people, did not exercise this power, these young bravos would find it boring and dull. One of Nazism's major credos was confrontation of its perceived enemies, as we know. It built up power, flaunted it, and used it. If all Nazism had done was to build Autobahns and stock German forests with deer, it would hold no attraction for these folks. The Holocaust empowers those who have no power at all. It made the hoodlum, the criminal, the thug, the bully, the sadist, the lunatic, the ideologue, the demented scientist -- people that most societies abhor -- into rulers of the state. The real aim is to change the narrative of the Holocaust. The neo-Nazis want to turn the Holocaust from being a horrific act of deliberate and systematic genocidal murder and kleptomania into a necessary cleansing of humanity. Note that the neo-Nazi and denier explanations focus on the Jews being evil and conspiratorial, being thieves and liars. It is to make them into villains, menacing the white race. The Holocaust will be re-told by the neo-Nazis, in their imagined future, as being a judicial act of capital punishment, ordered by law and an outraged Aryan people against a sub-human race of thieves and conspirators, who got what they deserved. But they can't say that in today's society...or tomorrow's...or next week's. They know that to spout such ideas is to gain them contempt, ostracization, sneering, ridicule, and private and public harassment. They may gain confrontation -- they absolutely want to have confrontation, which gives them a sense of power over others -- but it does not gain them converts. So the neo-Nazis have to go on prattling about Holocaust denial. They say it didn't happen. Nazism bore no malice and did not harm Jews. hitler was their best friend. The Holocaust is all lies. The whole thing is a conspiracy. The Jews are really the evil ones, and they should have all been killed. But the Nazis, being wonderful people, did not. That approach gains supporters, particularly among the young minds described above. And to gain the attention of supporters, the neo-Nazis have to show that they're more than just a bunch of angry racists, hooking back Brewski, listening to Panzerfaust CDs, whining about Jews and blacks, re-reading old copies of the "National Vanguard," and reliving the previous demonstration with the photo album (with the incidents becoming increasingly lurid in the telling). Confrontation makes them real. Confrontation makes them think they're alive. Confrontation gets reactions from the public...furious Communists, annoyed cops, tearful Jews, fascinated reporters with TV cameras. They thread the needle..."The Holocaust never happened, but the Jews got what they deserved." So there is no debate. These folks only seek confrontation. And since they have no new ideas, they just spout the same old discredited garbage. I do have a question for these guys...have any of them actually read "Mein Kampf" cover to cover? Not even Goebbels and Goering did that. Kiwiwriter, depth of your replies again are outstanding , i think my problem is that i think that they think the same as me, which is an error from the start, whilst posting on a couple of forums you get to see a lot of material about this subject and its not often you get to "interact" with people who are deniers.On a personal note im fascinated by the subject of the Holocaust and still cant comprehend that people still dont think it happened and it is a lie.I think this is the reason i wish sometimes you could discuss a subject sensibly with someone of opposite beliefs. never mind, i bet they tell their kids there is no Santa Claus as soon as they can !!
Kiwiwriter, depth of your replies again are outstanding , i think my problem is that i think that they think the same as me, which is an error from the start, whilst posting on a couple of forums you get to see a lot of material about this subject and its not often you get to "interact" with people who are deniers.On a personal note im fascinated by the subject of the Holocaust and still cant comprehend that people still dont think it happened and it is a lie.I think this is the reason i wish sometimes you could discuss a subject sensibly with someone of opposite beliefs. never mind, i bet they tell their kids there is no Santa Claus as soon as they can !! No worries, mate...remember that these guys live in "a nice little house, right next to reality." That's a phrase I coined some years ago. You have to view the world from their point...the Raphael Ezekiel book and other reading helped, including the neo-Nazis' own stuff. They have this sense of entitlement, frustration, and rage, and conspiracy theories provide neat and clean answers to complex questions of life, usually reinforcing pre-existing stereotypes. There really isn't much to "debate" about the Holocaust...it happened, and that's it. You can "discuss" how and why. Was it intentionalist or functionalist? Did Hitler give a written order, a specific order, or just say, like Henry II, "Will not someone rid me of this truculent priest?" The big argument now seems to be over whether the German people were basically anti-Semitic from a character flaw (Goldhagen) or just ordinary folks (Browning). I vote for Browning.
I would agree, just ordinary folk until propaganda and the education system gets hold of you. and to think ethnic cleansing still goes on
I would agree, just ordinary folk until propaganda and the education system gets hold of you. and to think ethnic cleansing still goes on Yeah, that's about it. I sometimes wonder who the next designated victims will be.
No doubt Lee will forthwith ban me from the forum, because he won't appreciate my throwing of my hundred pound spanner of truth into his moribund holocaust works. Maybe I am more patient that most but I never set out to ban anyone because of their views unless its total denial that the holocaust happened. I am more than happy to enter into a debate about the course of the holocaust and if you have supported evidence to back up your theories then lets have them. To quote a very old and very apt phrase, "A Picture tells a thousand words". And to be honest no words can ever dispute the images from the camps. I wont post pictures here, but google the holocaust and see what you get. What do you have?
