Did friendly fire kill Guy Gibson?

I'm coming a bit late to this thread as I've been on holiday.

But the more I think about this theory the more preposterous it sounds

One of his favourite tricks was to dive at a plane to check the gunner was awake. On this occasion it seems the gunner was awake and upon seeing a two-engined plane assumed it was German and started shooting."

It is one thing to suggest that Gibson might have been arrogant enough to fly a mission in a type that he wasn't checked out in. (Probably thought if he could fly a Lanc he could fly a Mosquito). But to approach a bomber to see if the gunner was awake? The gunner wouldn't just give a cheery wave. The only way you'd know he was awake would be when the lead from four Brownings started coming your way. Gibson may have been a flawed character (who isn't?) but he wasn't that stupid.

And who says the gunners were likely to be asleep anyway? Sitting in a freezing turret a few feet from four Merlins knowing you would be dead if you didn't see the nightfighter before he saw you is hardly an ovaltine substitute.
Definitely someone trying to sell a book

And lets not be hasty about assuming Gibson and Woods didn't know where the fuel cocks were. The Mosquito's Merlins had a nasty habit of cutting out under the negative g encountered in hedge-hopping flight, which caught out many experienced pilots. It is believed that this was a factor in the loss of preserved Mosquito RR299 in 1996.

Adrian

 

Despite many failings that we all have, he was a heroic pilot, he died one and still is in my opinion!

 

To which I say Hell Yeah!

 

If new information , which is supported by genuine documents/ witnessess then perhaps it is right to bring it to the attention of the masses. However as has been touched, when speculation comes to light and a bit of scandal or some unexplained occurence happens/is brought up it is hard to sort out the genuine investigator from the chaff/ gossip merchants.

Some natural believe that if a thing is kept secret then someone is hiding something. There could be a valid explanation. However curtains twitch, and if the reported gives some innocent but genuine explanation and it doesn't match what the reporter wants - conspiracy theory, government cover up, internal hit squad etc etc.

It's alright chucking up this information but it leaves loose ends and is in a lot of cases just creates a question mark. W/Cmdr Gibson had his faults but his place in history is immortalised. Come up with cold hard fact and one would have to accept it, but as it is just smearing a war hero's memory, just to sell a few papers, cause a bit of controversy. They are just rehashing bits of this and bits of that and chucking up questions that now after the event and those participating long gone, knowing they can't be answered.

 

Persoanlly I feel sorry for his brother Alick having to listen to all of this crap.

 

Gibson - who led the 1943 raid on the Ruhr dams died when his twin-engine Mosquito fighter-bomber crashed into a hillside.


The story current at the time was the engines had been sabotaged by his groundcrew, who did not hold him in high esteem!

 

Codswallop Beloved. He wasn't meant to be in that Mossy, but insisted the other experienced crew swap planes at the last second as he wasn't happy with the one designated to him.

 

But can it be substantiated, that's the thing. Or are the groundcrew in question all long gone and hence no fear of comeback. One would have to be one sick twisted ........ to kill one of their own in such a manner. What of S/Ldr Warwick, just an innocent party??

Personal animosity is one thing, murder is another. Stirs up a bit of gossip, food for thought, what if!

 

I think part of the cause of Gibson's acknowledged difficulty with subordinates was his childhood. He was actually born in Simla, India, and his parents were very much a part of the ruling British Raj. They were therefore of the class that had house servants, and treated them very much as inferiors. This attitude would have rubbed off on Gibson, who was still in his formative years. (In my very early working life, I was unfortunate enough to work under a woman who had similar antecedents, and she did as little for herself as possible, apparently expecting her colleagues to tidy up after her, etc).

However, I recall a picture taken of Gibson in early 1942 or late 1941 when he was a Hampden pilot with - I think - 83 Squadron, surrounded by smiling groundcrew. He certainly looks popular in that picture!

I would agree that the most likely cause of his death was simply his unfamiliarity with the fuel system of the Mosquito. It IS irresponsible to jump into an aircraft with which you are unfamiliar and fly it, but this was, after all, wartime, when the normal rules of conduct don't always necessarily apply. Gibson had done three tours of duty, and was obviously driven by a desire to be in action, flying and fighting - such was the attitude that earned him the VC. He was flawed, but in the final analysis, he was also extremely gutsy, determined, and a talented pilot. That is what he should be remembered for.

Barnes Wallis described Gibson thus:

For some men of great courage and adventure, inactivity was a slow death. Would a man like Gibson ever have adjusted back to peacetime life? One can imagine it would have been a somewhat empty existence after all he had been through. Facing death had become his drug. He had seen countless friends and comrades perish in the great crusade. Perhaps something in him even welcomed the inevitability he had always felt that before the war ended he would join them in their Bomber Command Valhalla. He had pushed his luck beyond all limits and he knew it. But that was the kind of man he was…a man of great courage, inspiration and leadership. A man born for war…but born to fall in war.

 

He was actually born in Simla, India, and his parents were very much a part of the ruling British Raj. They were therefore of the class that had house servants, and treated them very much as inferiors. This attitude would have rubbed off on Gibson, who was still in his formative years.

But a lot of officers were the product of the Raj, or were the children of Raj officials. Most, if not all, had a sense of class differences, and it was a two-way thing. Subordinates also knew the way that the system worked. And generally, any resentment tended to be just normal grumblings, rather than out -and out trouble making. An officer would have had to have been a real basket case for subordinates to cause real troble (and in no way am I claiming that this was the case with Guy)

In my very early working life, I was unfortunate enough to work under a woman who had similar antecedents, and she did as little for herself as possible, apparently expecting her colleagues to tidy up after her, etc.

My grandparents used to tell me stories of white officials of the Raj. One grandfather used to find the way that some officials could be really nice and friendly to their immidiate subordinates, and then treat all the other Indians with utter disdain. As my grandfather fell into the former category, he always felt conflicted in his loyalties between his superiour and his community. But he did say that the memsahibs were worse!

 

The main problem with Guy's childhood was his parents. His father was distant, a product of Victorian/Edwardian England. He couldn't be affectionate with his children. His mother turned out to be a neurotic drunk. Alick (his older brother ) wa spacked off to an English boarding school, leaving Guy and his sister alone, then his sister was packed off to Dorset to their grandparents to school, and eventually Guy followed, by now an enclosed, distant child from his peers.
If you don't get involved and don't let people get close, you can't be hurt. This was increased by his parents divorce and his mother's subsequent death whilst drunk.
Then his marraige turned out to be childless, and Guy was desperate for children to love. He doted on his neices and nephews, and was fantastic with children who wanted to talk to him. I think Eve was a desperately wrong choice for marriage, but he wouldn't divoorce her when he met the woman who could give him the stability he needed.
As to his groundcrew hating him, he was a product of the pre-war RAF where officers and erks did not mix, so he was very cool towards them. But when he got to command level he fiercley defended all udne rhim solong as they gave as much as he did. You worked hard and he'd look after you, if you didn't then he would give you utter hell.
It has been said that you either loved or loathed him, and those who loved him would follow wherever he led.
Here endeth the psychological/sociological dissection.

 

If you don't get involved and don't let people get close, you can't be hurt.....Here endeth the psychological/sociological dissection.

And he was very attached to his dog, Nigger (which is often redubbed as Trigger)

 

I sometimes think that if some other much dramatised ww2 hero had a cat called 'C*nt' it would have caused less controversy and discussion than that Labrador.

I agree. Having been called many racist names over the years, I certainly think that there's no place for it in the modern world. But I don't agree with sanitising history for todays sensibilities.

 

Here endeth the psychological/sociological dissection.

Any room on that therapists couch Kitty? I could do with a lay down!

Millsy

 

Any room on that therapists couch Kitty? I could do with a lay down!

Millsy

Talk to my Beloved, he's the qualified shrink.

 

Talk to my Beloved, he's the qualified shrink.

What, you mean he's really little?

 

What, you mean he's really little?

I really couldn't answer that question.

(The smart arse has 2 degrees)

 

(The smart arse has 2 degrees)

Ah, one for each cheek!

 

You wait until he sees that later.