Gunner Harold Forden WW2 service history

We’ll never know the full extent of the hardships that they endured.

BBC - WW2 People's War - The tale of the Yorkshire Welsh Guardsman

This is the account provided by the brother in law of my Dad’s mate (captured with my Dad in Libya Dec 1941.) They were split up in Italy and his mate ended up at Heyderbreck work camp (Lamsdorf). His mate complained in his POW questionnaire about the Camp guards causing unnecessary casualties by not allowing them access to bomb shelters (slit trenches?) when the facility was bombed.

Steve

 

Really good account of POW life and how difficult it was. On my Dads POW questionnaire My Dad mentions a German who looked after him in the work camp, saying he should be rewarded. It makes me proud that even through all the hardships he could still point out someone who helped him even though he was the “enemy”.

Regards

Paul

 

Hi hoping for a bit more help with my Dads army records. On one of the sheets it is stamped:ME 19 JUN 1941, does this mean medically examined?

there’s another stamp:
“Escaped” P.W. Arrived UK 14.5.45 (date) Not to be sent…….. This bit is missing
Before 14.11.45 ( date, six months from date of….This bit is missing.
Can anyone complete the missing bits?

Y release
Relegated to section B
(Class A release)
Class T release
Is there a simple description of what they mean?

as always Thanks in advance.
Paul

 

Paul,

A few of your queries have been asked and answered on the forum previously and you will likely find the answer if you use the forum search facility.

For ease of response I’ve numbered your queries -

1. I can’t see the actual stamp but it may mean Medically examined or even Middle East (Forces) as he was newly arrived in Egypt about that date.

2. All returning POW from Europe were exempt from being posted overseas again for a period of 6 months after they arrived in U.K.. It was important bearing in mind that in spring 1945 it was envisaged that the war in the Far East would continue well into 1946. The stamp is noting the earliest date for an overseas posting but it was no longer relevant in view of the swift end of the Far East war and the rapid demobilisation process that followed.

3. Again I can’t see the Y Release on the forms but it will likely be a reference to his posting to the Y list on commencement of his pre discharge leave (often approaching 3 months in length). It is an administrative code so the army knew where men were at any given time.

4. Your father was a pre war regular soldier who had signed on for 12 years service in 1939 - 4 years with the colours and 8 years in the reserve. He still had almost 6 years Reserve commitment to fulfil in 1945 so when he was demobilised he was posted to Section B Army Reserve as he would have been had he been discharged to the reserve in 1943. Unlike conscripts - who were posted to Section Z Reserve on demobilisation - regular army B reservists received quarterly Reserve pay while Z reservists received nothing. Section B men would’ve been recalled to the army before the vast majority of Class Z men.

5. In the demobilisation process a calculation of release date was made by use of a table combining age and length of service (same rules whether prewar regular or wartime conscripts - start date for “service” calculation Sept 1939 so pre war service didn’t count) . Men were given an Age & Service Group number and were released in strict Group order under Class A.

The vast majority of men were released under Class A but men who had “important” civilian skills and jobs pre war ie Tradesmen, Police etc could be released sooner than their Age & Service Group under Class B.

6. When your fathers Section B commitment expired in January 1951 he was likely posted to Z Reserve - I think T(erritorial) stamp is more likely a clerical error - and would remain on Z Reserve until his 45th birthday (although I think rules were changed in the late 1950’s and Z men were released on reaching age 40). Retaining men in Z Reserve just made it easier to recall them if required - remember there was a Cold War ongoing and various “emergencies” in the 1950’s ie Korean War, Suez etc.

There is an “Available” stamp followed by a handwritten “52” on the front of the B102 Index card that likely indicates he was sent a questionnaire in 1952 asking for details of his civilian employment so the army could decide whether he was available for recall from the Reserve if required while the Korean War was ongoing. I’ve seen completed questionnaires on various Scots Guards service files on Findmypast site.

Steve

 

Thanks again Steve, I’ve attached the document with the stamps etc. I think the T is an R as Reserve, which fits. There’s no title on it. It appears to be some kind of summary from 1941.
Would you know how the Army service records were compiled during the war? We’re returns sent back to UK and compiled by clerks from officers orders? Just trying to see how all this info was collated. Trying to understand the logistics of all this info on each individual soldier.
Not all forms have Titles or numbers, some look like cards. Also lots of duplication.
I’m going through each form and tecreating it on computer so I compile all the info as I get more understanding. It’s helped me learn as I collate the info.
Thanks again

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

The forms MOD have released are the “tip of the iceberg” of his service file contents at the time of his discharge in 1951.

Many of the documents held by MOD may have been destroyed over the years but if the complete sets of WW2 era Scots Guards service records on Findmypast site (Guards regiments held their own records and had their own rules) are anything to go by then there should be 100+ pages in an “average” file - medical records, POW documents, discipline records etc.

Many of those forms were completed in triplicate for circulation purposes in those pre computerised days.

The most important form was the B103. The Scots Guards files usually contain 3 versions which often have slight variations suggesting they were maintained and updated at 3 different locations.

My best guess is -

A copy maintained by clerks at Battalion level (Field Regiment for RA).

A copy maintained at B Echelon level (admin centre) in the theatre of war.

A copy maintained at Regimental Headquarters (Regional Record office for infantry of the line & for RA the Records office at Foots Cray Barracks, Kent).

Required updates were notified to each office by forwarding a copy of an order (usually maintained in triplicate).

You often see B103 updated out of chronological sequence likely as one or more office receives an update from elsewhere sometime after the event due to communication difficulties between home and overseas during the war.

All 3 sets of papers were brought together for retention after a man had been discharged and have maybe subjected to “culling” over the years under file retention policies.

Steve

 

Great stuff Steve thanks for all the help. I’ve gone from looking at several pieces of paper with lots of army jargon to “starting” to understand and put it all together in some form of chronological order. couldn’t have done it without the help of this site.

Thanks for all the help.
Paul

 

Looking at you fathers papers I see that he commenced his terminal leave 31st January 1946 with a discharge date of 21st May 1946.

However he had elected to attend a Civil Resettlement Unit (there was a form of election that needed to be completed YES/NO) as part of the 45 Division returning POW medical examination process. His papers show he attended 4 CRU (I’m not aware of the location) from 17th May 1946 until 5th July 1946 so his actual discharge date was delayed until 10th July 1946.

This CRU document may be of interest -

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d586/a3598bdd93b436b6907d8dda5785499edc95.pdf


Steve

 

Thanks for that. It must have been difficult adjusting after so much time as a prisoner. The POWs I met at the Stalag IVB association reunion all said that by being part of the association it helped them as they could share experiences with others who had been through it. Sadly they have all passed away but I will always remember them and the help they gave me sharing their memories.
Cheers

Paul

 

Scrolling through a search on the British Newspaper Archive, which I do not have a subscription for hence the limited details, the 'Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer' reported on 16/10/1945 that 4 CRU was at:

From: Results for 'civil resettlement unit ' | British Newspaper Archive

On Facebook, in a local group, there is a reference to the hotel being there in 1947, but the building was burnt down in 1968. The image below suggests it was quite a large hotel at one stage. Ah, Wiki states it was and is a spa town. See: Ilkley - Wikipedia


Another press report in July 1945 refers to:

On 12/7/1945 there was a 1945 Royal Visit to Hatfield House (home of Lord Salisbury's family then and now), which had a CRU and this lead to considerable publicity for their work - which is referred to in the last linked document.

Some entries in the newspaper archive indicate that there were twenty such units, often using country houses, e.g. Wightwick Hall, near Wolverhampton (now a NT place) and they closed in 1947.

There is a public document on what the CRU did. First, there is a Civil Resettlement Units - Wikipedia and Civil Resettlement Units (CRU)

Ahh, for an in depth explanation there is a 2016 University of Kent PhD and link fixed:
https://kar.kent.ac.uk/55057/1/149From the Science of Selection to Psychologising Civvy Street- The Tavistock G.pdf

 

Thanks David, that’s brilliant. I couldn’t open the last link but got all the info from the other links. I never knew they offered anything to returning POW’s. Relatives have told me Dad was never the same after the war. He died in his early 50’s. Who knows what affect the war and capture had on him.
I’m slowly piecing together his records into something I can understand.
Regards

Paul

 

Fixed the link Paul and tested this time.

 

Great thanks.
Is a military collecting unit the same thing as a military dispersal unit?
There’s a record that states:
CTBA proceeding to No2 Military Collecting Unit, posted to Y list 31/01/46

 

Hi I have a couple of further questions relating to my Dads service records, I’m hoping someone can help with?

I’ve attached 2 images,
1) part of the B200b form. It shows certificates of education 3rd and 2nd, with 2 dates in 1939.
Does anyone know what this is?

2) part of a form which shows Rank Gunner
D IV. Any idea what this is?
Also Trade, I think it says Driver III
The next bit is blanked out, again what is this?

I’ve now gone through all his documents that I have and thanks to everyone here starting to make some sense of it.

3) I came across a site that said the RA had released Tracer Cards? Any idea how to get a copy and do they show anything new?

Thanks in advance

Paul

 

I believe they are Paul although I can’t find any mentions of “Collecting Unit” - I expect it is a misuse of the official term by an army clerk.

Demobilisation of the British Armed Forces after the Second World War - Wikipedia

Steve

 

Hi,

1. Re Education Certificates - Most pre war recruits had left school at age 14 with no formal qualifications. OR rank promotion was based on passing internal examinations plus having a certain level of AEC. Some subjects on the syllabus were specific to military ie map reading but others were akin to general education ie Maths, Geography etc. Possession of army education certificates and an exemplary character reference on discharge was a positive in seeking civilian employment.

Most recruits passed the Class 3 Examination during basic training and could then voluntarily go on to study Class 2 and eventually Class 1.

I have my fathers 1937 Class 3 Certificate from the Guards Depot and his 1938 Class 2 Certificate awarded whilst serving in Alexandria, Egypt.

2. As the army became more specialised men could be graded for pay purposes according to possessing a certain level of professional ability. In relation to drivers there were different classes for different types of vehicle - same as for civilian driving licences. I don’t know the full criteria but that is the relevance of the entries. The scrawled through text looks to be the order authorising an upgrade in 1939 and the visible text further down the B102 dated 1951 is in relation to another upgrade.

3. RA Tracer Card - I think one of the paid for genealogy/family history sites has a partial run of these cards and they seem to mostly duplicate the information on the B102. As you have his full record from MOD you may not glean anything more but you could take out a 14 day free membership for the sole purpose of obtaining the Tracer Card plus.

You could also search for his RA Attestation Register entry solely for completeness as it will add nothing to what is in his MOD papers.

Steve

 

Thanks Steve that’s great. No2 dispersal unit was in York which is close to Middlesbrough.
Another question?
on my Dads Military history sheet, see attached , it shows him in MEF 19.05.41 to 30.11.41.
Then Iraq and Egypt. Although he was captured in Tobruk Libya.
Is there a reason this is not all classed as part of the MEF right up to being captured in Jun 42.

Thanks

Paul

 

Iraq was covered by a different command, Iraq Force and later PAIFORCE, as each had its own allocated Army command structure. It had a significant garrison and was used for R&R for units that had been damaged in North Africa. See: Docs – Persia Iraq 1941-1947 – Overview Higher Formations and Iraqforce - Wikipedia

Quite a few units arrived there, "worked up" and then moved onto North Africa, later Italy. A large portion of the military there were from the Indian Army.

 

Thanks again!!!

My Dad was posted to 2nd Reserve Regiment for a few days before going to 124th field regiment. I can’t find any references to this regiment. Previous to this he is in the RA Depot at Woolwich, but it also says Woolwich against the 2nd Reserve. Is this saying he is still in the Depot but assigned to 2nd Reserve?

Regards

Paul

 

Yes, to your question. As I've suggested earlier the chaos in the UK after Dunkirk could explain all of this. Historically an online search found a few references to such a regiment @ Woolwich, not Royal Artillery, in WW1. So, in crisis mode use a formation that has existed - simples.