Another Upper Stratton casualty of WW2. John Heslop. CWGC :: Casualty Details Killed when his ship was sunk. Good article here. Loss of HMS Glorious Knowing nothing at all about the Navy does his Service Number have any relevance to his trade? D/J 72661. Name on here. Plymouth Naval Memorial :: The Panels >>> http://www.webrarian.co.uk/rnwm/037.jpg
Hi Owen, Does his Service Number have any relevance to his trade? D/J 72661? D= Devonport, J= Seamen, Signalmen and Telegraphists. Regards Arthur
Interesting article Owen. Not sure that the fact that Glorious and her escorts where ovepowered comes as a great surprise. Once you take the carrier out of it two destroyers wont stand much of a chance against 2 modern battlecrusiers/ships. Why was the carrier so close to known Enemy forces without a sizeable main gun warship for protection? no mention of Churchill either who I understand had big part to play in why she was there. Kev
Thanks Arthur. As I said, I know nothing about the navy and naval actions. I must do something about it.
Just happened to be trawling through older threads in this Navy section when I saw this little bit on HMS Glorious. Seeing that I have just acquired a very nice photo of the old girl I think it would be churlish not to show it off here!
Owen, as to comment by Doyly-Hughes that `no submarine has been sunk by aircraft' - correct ? - if you do not consider an AIRSHIP to be an A/c. HMS/m D3 was bombed and sunk by a French Airship off Fecamp, France, 12 March, 1918 !! Sadsac
I know a RN Veteran who was serving on the Victorious at the time it was in the convoy with Glorious. We were talking one day and the subject came up of the Norwegian campaign and the loss of Glorious and the two destroyer escorts. When I mentioned that it should never have happened he was amazed to learn that the reason the Carrier Glorious broke away from the Convoy with here two escorts. This was due to the Captain of the Glorious, requesting to make immediately to Scapa Flow to start Court martial proceedings against the Air Crew Commander who he had recently put ashore at Norway. Once permission was granted to leave the safety of the larger convoy and failing to fly off reconnaissance flights, they were a target waiting to be sunk by the two German Battle Cruisers. Regards Tom
Owen, as to comment by Doyly-Hughes that `no submarine has been sunk by aircraft' - correct ? - if you do not consider an AIRSHIP to be an A/c. HMS/m D3 was bombed and sunk by a French Airship off Fecamp, France, 12 March, 1918 !! Sadsac First sinking of a submarine by aircraft. Taken from my proposed history of 120 Squadron RAF. It was during WW1 that the first submarine was sunk from the air; this honour fell to the Austrian Air Service. On 16 August 1916 the British boat B-10 was moored in the harbour of Venice when Austrian aircraft raided the port; one of their bombs scored a direct hit on B-10 and she sank. A submarine on the surface at her moorings can hardly be thought of in the same terms as the elusive craft she is when in the open sea; however, the Austrians were to prove some five weeks later they could sink a submarine there as well. On 15 September two Lohner flying boats, L-132 and L-135 located the French submarine Foucault, cruising thirty-five feet beneath the waters of the Adriatic. They aimed four bombs at the dark silhouette beneath them. The unexpected explosions shook the French submarine badly. She lost her trim, there was some flooding, and her damaged batteries no longer gave sufficient current to drive the electric motors. As Foucault plunged out of control, her crew imagined that she had struck a mine. The captain ordered the ballast tanks to be blown, and the submarine floated up to the surface where she immediately came under further attack from the two flying boats. When the French captain found that the diesel motors could not be started, he realised that the leaking Foucault was in a hopeless position. He ordered his men to open the seacocks, and then abandon the boat. The attacking aircraft alighted on the water, took the survivors on board and waited for a torpedo boat to arrive. It had now been proved that aircraft could find and inflict mortal damage on a submarine in open water. French Submarine Foucault and Lohner flying boat No.135.
I came across this article today: HMS Glorious – The cover up of Churchill’s Operation Paul Written by the grandson of the captain of HMS Ardent, he describes Churchill as the 'architect' of the demise of Glorious, Ardent and Acasta which seems to be a stretch given the evidence he has produced. It was written in 2019 though and makes much of the 'closure' of records of the subsequent enquiry for 100 years. The good thing, though, is that I had not heard of Operation 'Paul' before finding this article and it does appear to have been rather under-reported in much written history. There are references to 'Paul' in the CAB files though so that looks like a bit of a good place to start. Should keep me busy as the autumn evenings begin to close in. Regards Tom
Reporting of it has increased in recent years. David Hobbs devotes nearly 7 pages to Operation Paul in his "The Fleet Air Arm and the War in Europe 1939-1945" published in 2022. If delving into the archives CAB 84/13 might be a good place to start. Also CAB 21/1471, CAB 84/2 & WO 106/1873
How did an aircraft carrier allow itself to be within range of aq battleship? Didn't it carry lots of swordfish aircraft manned by eagle eyed crew for the purpose of spotting enemy ships?
Now maybe ten to fifteen years ago I read a book chapter in a then well-known book - sadly lost at a Paris airport - which related the story. Cannot recall the author and the Wiki list of books does not help my memory. It was a tale of arrogance and incompetence IIRC. If you search for "The Tragedy of HMS Glorious" it will identify several videos on YouTub. Some appears to be the 1999 C4 'Secret History' episode about this; the producer / director learnt too late about Operation Paul to include it.
A key question for the enquiry no doubt! Loss of HMS Glorious, Ardent and Acasta, transport Orama and tanker Oil Pioneer: Board... | The National Archives Regards Tom
"Historical Dreadnoughts" by Barry Gough (1st published in 2010) might fit the bill? There is a section in there which talks about new evidence that came to light in the 1980's from the officer who had been landed by the Captain of the Glorious and was supposedly to be court martialed on the ship's return to the UK. Roskill used it in a newspaper article, I think. It's an entertaining read, especially for those who like to read of historian's tantrums!! Regards Tom
Her own airgroup had been reduced to half of 823 Swordfish squadron (6 aircraft) and her own fighter squadron, 802 with IIRC 9 Sea Gladiators. The rest of her hangars were filled with RAF aircraft rescued from Norway (10 Gladiator & 7 Hurricanes safely landed aboard without arrester hooks). The controversy that still runs is bound up in your question. The Captain ordered no flying. Intelligence said no risk from German warships. No lookout in the crows nest. Two thirds of boilers online. He was in a hurry to get back to Scapa to run a Court Martial on his Commander Flying who IITC had been put ashore already. The crew were getting ready for a spot of leave - warheads being removed from torpedoes.Clear day, excellent visibility. Steaming 17 knots on a zigzag to counter U-boats.
I highly recommend Haarr's account of the loss of the Glorious found in his book The Battle for Norway. The first source I found that provided a detailed account of the event. Well worth reading (as are his other books on that campaign). .
According to Harry Hinsley, he used traffic analysis to tell OIC that German surface units were on the move but it seems that no warnings were given to the forces at sea off the Norwegian coast. I don't know whether much documentary evidence exists of the intelligence position. Regards Tom
I second that. Haarr's books are brilliant. He has researched both Norwegian and German sources that were ignored by British authors.
