help with grandfathers war recorded needed

Any help with my grandfathers World War Two records would be much appreciated.

I understand some of the details but many I am unsure about. For instance he spent from 15/4/42 to 29/11/42 under Y List (6). My understanding from reading here is that means he was in hospital but what category does (6) mean?

Also under cause of being Non-effective it says -
Authy Cash Cat A in one section and in another it says

what might be
'Ca. A. Authy Gar "L"

(gar might be Cas)

He dies in January 1944 and there is an arrow pointing to the date it happens on and it says
'O2E BNAF CAS /4415 17.2.44 also OR /135801/E on 26.4.44

The later date seems to be around the time his body is recovered if that helps and I think BNAF is British North Africa Forces as he was serving in Italy at that time.

Any help will be gratefully appreciated.

 

Peter.

Can you provide his name and regiment?

Regards

FdeP

 

peter - this is real sloppy admin....however he appeared to be in 11th battalion - which would be a holding Battalion of some Regiment just after Dunkirk

then transferred to a fighting battalion- 6th Batt...29/11/42.....then unemployed Y list - so back to 11th Batt. ......14/10/43 embarked for Italy code RNLJS.....25/19/43 - Sick list awaiting transfer fro Reinforcement unit IRTD ...22/1/44

wounded then died - probably at MIgnano // Gariligliano with Xth Corps 5th US Army

Cheers

 

Tom.

With Manning & Records in York, I would hazard a guess at 6 Y&L, part of 46 Inf Div.

FdeP

 

Minden

more than likely as a reinforcement into Salerno - then KIA around Mignano

Cheers

 

Frank

I don't think it is the 6th Y&L. They had one 'Die on Active Service' on the 19/01/44 and 2 KIA and 1 DOW on 29/01/44. I can't find any casualties for 22/01/44 or between those dates.

The 6th Lincs maybe?

 

Frank

may very well be 6th Lincs as they were in the same bde..But - it was not uncommon for a man to be KIA - and not found for some days afterwards so the "died on active service" might refer to the Y&L casualty of the 19th Jan as there was some bitter battles at about that time at Mignano - San Pietro en fine - Rapido et al......the first Landing at Anzio was made on the 22nd January '44 - and in the mountains - the winter had set in - at about the same time as 8th Army was held at the Sangro with bridges being washed away etc...then the first Battle for Cassino when Mark Clark tried to reinforce his failure..they were very tough times

Cheers

 

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the help. He was in the Yorks and Lancshire Regiment and died around Minterno, Italy. I have found info. about the battle in the War Diaries held at the National Archives and also in Major Sheffield's Volume 3 book on the regiment dealing with period from 1919-1953.

The fighting was particularly tough and Companies A,B,C and D were all decimated by a combination of relentless mortar and the Germans using their tanks on their positions at Mount Natale and around the cemetery.

 

Hi Peter

What was your grandfathers name?

Just that my grandad was in D Coy of the 6th York & Lancs at that time, and in a book he received of the 6th battalion's history in WW2, there is no casualties recorded for the date of 22/01/44 (as per my previous post above) and also can't find one via the CWGC website.

There is also some other details for 6th Y&L's activities around that date in this previous thread.

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/13709-york-lancaster-regimental-history/?hl=%2Byork+%2Band+%2Blancaster

Regards

Scott

 

All reported deaths for 22 January 1944 for the Yorks & Lancs Regiment are 1st Battalion - all 23 of them!

Best,

Steve.

 

He was reported missing on 22 January, believed wounded but his body was found in April.

 

Peter

On what basis do you know the body was found in April? Is it from the service records or do you have information from elsewhere?

Also after being asked twice for your grandfathers name and not providing it, i assume for some reason you don't wish for his name to be made public.

The thing is, is that i have a copy of the 6th Bn York & Lancs Missing Personnel File for Italy. If indeed your grandfather was reported missing in January & his body only recovered in April then there is a good chance there will be statements etc in it detailing your grandfathers last movements & situation.

If you want to you can pm me his name then i will have a look through the file to see if there is anything regarding him, and send you the details if it suits.

Also looking at the service record, i'm starting to have a sneaky feeling he went from 1 IRTD to the 1st Bn Y&L not the 6th, but wouldn't be able to confirm without a name.

Cheers

Scott

 

ClankyPencil,

I have PMed you the details. Also did every battalion have a missing personnel file?

 

Clanky

you may be perfectly right as of him being in 1st Batt Y & L as they were in 5th Division in the same area at that time the service record sample goes from the 1st IRTD - to reported missing might have been prior to 5th Div going off to Anzio but that was later as 56th went with the landings group

Cheers

 

Tom

Have ascertained from Peter (via PM) and CWGC records that his grandfather was with the 1st Battalion Y&L when he was reported missing and eventually confirmed KIA.

Cheers

Scott

 

Just checked his records again when I got back from work yesterday. He was in the 6th battalion but was moved to the 1st battalion when he travelled to Italy.

More info. on the battle he was involved in comes from Geoffrey Winter

'Mr. Winter’s account is reproduced here courtesy of Tiger and Rose, newsletter of the York and Lancaster Regiment.

The 1st Battalion, The York and Lancaster Regiment, landed in Sicily on 10th of July 1943. I joined the battalion some days later and served as platoon commander of 12 Platoon in ‘B’ Company until the end of the year when I was transferred to ‘S’ Company. After the Sicilian campaign the battalion was among the first troops into Italy and for a time was the leading unit of the Eighth Army moving up the west coast. After a spell in the hills and mountains of the centre the battalion moved east to the line between Orsogna and Ortona. Then it was moved right across to the west in readiness to attack across the River Garigliano and capture enemy positions beyond the town of Minturno.



The battalion’s attack began in the morning on 20th January 1944 and by the end of the afternoon the objectives—the area around the cemetery on the road north from Minturno and a long hill, Monte Natale, had been captured, but not without casualties. Facing the enemy, ‘A’ Coy was astride the road, ‘B’ and ‘C’ were on Monte Natale with ‘D’ in reserve. Enemy counter-attack on the morning of 21st January resulted in ‘C’ Coy being driven with heavy loss on to ‘B’s position, then another counter-attack caused further losses. A very heavy enemy counter-attack with tanks began on the morning of 22nd January practically annihilating ‘A’ Coy. ‘B’ and ‘C’, later reinforced by two ‘D’ Coy platoons, all under command of Major D. B. Webster, held on but, under another counter-attack with tanks, were ordered to withdraw through the Green Howards' positions to the rear. After about two days of fighting the battalion had suffered nearly 300 casualties (largely from the rifle companies), including 64 missing. The dead of the battalion who were found were eventually buried in the Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery established near Minturno.



That seemed to be the end of the story. However, after nearly sixty years, preparatory site work for the building of a house on Monte Natale unearthed human remains which, on examination, were found to be of five British soldiers. Among the remains was a Y & L brass shoulder title. It was decided that they should be given a military funeral but this had to be at Cassino as the Minturno Cemetery was full. Responsibility for the organisation of the burials was mainly undertaken by Colonel (ret'd) Tom Huggan of the Defence Attache’s Office at the British Embassy in Rome in association with Mr. Christopher Oakford of the Ministry of Defence in this country. The Regimental Office was contacted and invited to nominate a representative to attend the service at Cassino. I was honoured to be invited.

Thus, on 17th July 2003, my wife and I found ourselves in the Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery at Cassino. The day was sunny and unusually hot. The cemetery is an impressive and moving sight with many hundreds of white headstones gleaming in the sun, overlooked by the monastery high above. It is now a most peaceful scene which was once a dreadful place. It was pleasing to see that there was a respectable number of people at the service.

Those present were positioned by the RSM of the NATO Signals School (Mr. Archer, Royal Signals). The Rev. Jonathan Boardman of All Saints Church in Rome took the service in which he kindly included the Regimental Collect. The lesson was read by Brigadier Allan Mallinson, the Military Attache at the Embassy. The bearer party of five senior NCO’s (four RAF and one Army) stood by the grave, one to each coffin. They were immaculately turned out and drilled well. It was heartening to know that each one had volunteered for the duty and indeed that one had returned specially from leave for the purpose. Each coffin bore a Union Jack, a wreath, a khaki beret and Y and L cap badge. At the committal each member of the bearer party knelt in turn, sprinkled earth on a coffin, stood up and saluted. The Last Post and Reveille were sounded by Warrant Officer Nicolo Pecorelli of the Italian Army.

Those present in addition to the Brigadier, the clergyman, my wife and myself were —the Mayor of Cassino, Colonel Huggan, Lieutenant-Colonel Turner (Royal Signals), the C.O. of the NATO Signals School with his wife and son, Major R. Deare of the Highlanders, Mr. C. Chalmers and Mr. R. O'Connor of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and several members of the Forces and their families. Group photographs were taken.



So at last five soldiers of the Minturno battle were properly laid to rest. We do not know their names as war-time identity discs were perishable. The inscription on each headstone reads “A Soldier of the 1939-1945, Known unto God”.



In the afternoon Colonel Huggan and I were driven to Minturno where we assembled near the former ‘A’ Coy position with Dr. Filippo Marino (who had carried out the examination of the remains) and Maresciallo Moscaritolo, Commander of the Carabinieri at Minturno. We went along a track on the forward slope of Monte Natale and saw the actual area where the remains had been found. I had last been in the area fifty nine years ago on the night of 21st January when I went up to see Derrick Webster and some of my old platoon. I well remember Derrick asking for (and getting!) my spare twelve rounds of .38 ammo.



We then did a general tour of the area and I tried to identify former positions but it was difficult to remember distances and orientations. Colonel Huggan, the doctor (who showed a lot of interest) and I went to the military cemetery at Minturno, another very moving experience. I particularly sought out the graves of L/Sgt Norman Sutton, a tough NCO who had been one of my section commanders in 12 Platoon, and of Pte. Hook, a stocky cheerful Welshman who had been my No.1 on the 2” mortar in that platoon.


I am grateful to Mr. Oakford of the Ministry of Defence for his part in the administration of the visit and my wife and I are immensely indebted to Colonel Tom Huggan for looking after us so well and to Brigadier Mallinson for giving a dinner in our honour. The Regiment must also be extremely grateful to Colonel Huggan for the very considerable efforts which he made to ensure that five brave men were given the farewell they deserved. Finally I must thank Colonel Geoffrey Norton for inviting me to represent the Regiment.'


Geoffrey Winter
1st Battalion, The York and Lancaster Regiment
In Remembrance Italy 1944 – 2003

So what I would like to know is

1. How do I get in contact with Geoffrey Winter?
2. How can I get the missing personnel file records from the 1st battalion?
3. Any more translation on the service records from my first post please.

 

1. Considering his visit to Italy was over 10 years ago there is a possibility that Mr Winter is no longer with us, but i would try the Regimental Museum first and see if they have got any contact details. From memory i think the Y&L have one at Rotherham but would have to check.


2. Missing Personnel Files are at the National Archives at Kew. I don't think you will be able to get them anywhere else like the Regimental Museum etc. From my previous pm to you

Missing Personnel files can be searched for on the National Archives Discovery database as below.

http://discovery.nat...ov.uk/SearchUI/

If you put a search in with 'York Lancaster Missing' you get the following results

http://discovery.nat...ncaster missing

I would initially ignore the Malaya, Burma, NW Europe and BEF ones.

Also definately ignore the North Africa (Ref WO 361/910) and the Italy (Ref WO 361/854) ones, as i've got copies of these and all the missing personnel are from the 6th Battalion, and i've checked through them and there is no mention of your Grandfather.

The one i would concentrate on would be the Sicily 1st Battalion one (Ref WO 361/967). With the 1st Bn noted as losing 23 men killed that day (22/01/44), i would expect they lost at least 2-3 times that number wounded, missing and/or POW. Even if your grandfather isn't mentioned specifically there could be written statements in there that will give a good indication and detail of the action they were involved in.

You could also look at the Middle East one (Ref WO 361/1032) but even though there will be a lot of 1st Bn Missing Personnel in there, i would expect 95%+ of them to be when they had to evacuate Crete earlier on in war (1941 i think).

If you can't get to the National Archives at Kew to see the files, look up Andy (username Drew5233) or Lee (username Psywar) on this forum who can copy them for you at a fraction of the cost that the NA charge.


3. CAS generally means casualty and any numbers or letters after probably signify type (i.e. KIA, MIA, POW etc).
As far as i know, a lot of the acronyms & numbers in the first column on service records were just codes used by the army clerks at the time and i don't know of anyone that still fully understands them or decipher them.

 

He might, only might, get a mention in this WO 361/854 Italy: York and Lancaster Regiment; missing personnel. That said I'd check the appendices in the battalions war diary first.

 

Drew, i've got a copy of WO 361/854 and its all 6th Battalion casualties. I think it more likely they would of carried on using the Sicily one for 1st Battalion missing persons in Italy.

 

In that case ......

WO 361/967 Sicily: 1st Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment; missing personnel