Komet fuel question.

Does anybody know the rate the two fuel components were pumped into the combustion chamber? Was there an upper and lower limit to rate they could be supplied, that you know of? I imagine the lower rate would be the point where they didn't ignite properly?

Oh, please assume the engine is on a test stand, not in use in the plane.


And don't try this at home.

 

Hello OpanaPointer
dont know if this helps
Rocket Fuels
Messerschmitt Me-163 Komet - rocket plane
The two fuels used were referred to as "T-Stoff" and "C-Stoff". T-Stoff is 48% concentrated hydrogen peroxide and a mixture of hydrocarbon compounds, and C-Stoff is 30% hydrazine hydrate solution in methyl alcohol. When the two fuels are added, a decomposing reaction takes place, resulting in tremendous thrust. The Walter HWK 109-509A rocket motor made use of a steam generator that used calcium permanganate as a catalyst to produce steam when a small amount of T-Stoff was added via an electric starter motor, the resulting steam starting the turbine to begin pumping the two fuels to the rocket motor. The starter motor was switched off, and the rocket motor was throttled through its five positions until it reached maximum thrust.
Source: "ROCKET FIGHTER The Story of the Messerschmitt Me163", by Mano Ziegler.

 

Hello OpanaPointer
dont know if this helps
Rocket Fuels
Messerschmitt Me-163 Komet - rocket plane
The two fuels used were referred to as "T-Stoff" and "C-Stoff". T-Stoff is 48% concentrated hydrogen peroxide and a mixture of hydrocarbon compounds, and C-Stoff is 30% hydrazine hydrate solution in methyl alcohol. When the two fuels are added, a decomposing reaction takes place, resulting in tremendous thrust. The Walter HWK 109-509A rocket motor made use of a steam generator that used calcium permanganate as a catalyst to produce steam when a small amount of T-Stoff was added via an electric starter motor, the resulting steam starting the turbine to begin pumping the two fuels to the rocket motor. The starter motor was switched off, and the rocket motor was throttled through its five positions until it reached maximum thrust.
Source: "ROCKET FIGHTER The Story of the Messerschmitt Me163", by Mano Ziegler.
Thanks, good leads! Some friends are wanting to build an engine for "experimental" purposes (meaning they're trying to blow themselves up. Again.)

 

I think the hypergolic reaction - two chemicals reacting explosively on contact - didn't depend on the rate they were pumped togther to actually combust; there's the famous film clip of an LW techie with a pipette letting a small amount of one drip onto a saucer of the other for a big BANG!

Where pumping rate would become vital is the amount of throttled thrust that was produced as the rate of coming together was increased

The British took and developed this principle of turbopumped hypergolic fuels as the only real part of German rocketry they got at the war's end; it later manifested itself in the Blue Streak/Black Arrow rockets! And thus....part of it is still flying in the second stage of Ariane, IIRC!

(The British regarded it - hypergolic fuels - as essential in an ICBM... because it removed the need for an ignition system - and thus took one whole layer of complexity out of a weapon system that would depend on speed of "generation" of the rocket on the day!:mellow

OP, google under "hypergolic"

 

I think the hypergolic reaction - two chemicals reacting explosively on contact - didn't depend on the rate they were pumped togther to actually combust; there's the famous film clip of an LW techie with a pipette letting a small amount of one drip onto a saucer of the other for a big BANG!

Where pumping rate would become vital is the amount of throttled thrust that was produced as the rate of coming together was increased

The British took and developed this principle of turbopumped hypergolic fuels as the only real part of German rocketry they got at the war's end; it later manifested itself in the Blue Streak/Black Arrow rockets! And thus....part of it is still flying in the second stage of Ariane, IIRC!

(The British regarded it - hypergolic fuels - as essential in an ICBM... because it removed the need for an ignition system - and thus took one whole layer of complexity out of a weapon system that would depend on speed of "generation" of the rocket on the day!:mellow

OP, google under "hypergolic"
I mentioned some of that to them already.

You have consider that they have blow-out panels in the roof of their garage, "just in case". Good thing they live a good distance from anybody else, by choice. (Ours and theirs.)

 

Some friends are wanting to build an engine for "experimental" purposes (meaning they're trying to blow themselves up. Again.)


I'm not sure that a hypergolic motor is the right way to go for amateur rocketry...for while it DOES do away with an actual ignition system (the Walter's starter motor was in effect just a CONTROLLED way of reaching "criticality"...when all parts of the system were powered and ready to start working TOGETHER...)...

...two "stable" non-reacting fuels and an ignition system at least has an OFF button for that Oshit Moment....

Why are they not just going down the commercial solid fuel "Estes" rocket cell path???

 

I'm not sure that a hypergolic motor is the right way to go for amateur rocketry...for while it DOES do away with an actual ignition system (the Walter's starter motor was in effect just a CONTROLLED way of reaching "criticality"...when all parts of the system were powered and ready to start working TOGETHER...)...

...two "stable" non-reacting fuels and an ignition system at least has an OFF button for that Oshit Moment....

Why are they not just going down the commercial solid fuel "Estes" rocket cell path???
They like to experiment. They've built rockets based on Goddard's papers, and at least one V-1 type motor they mounted on a 1954 Ford F-150.

 

A V1-pattern ramjet isn't hard to do, you can do it with cooking propane! And it's just aviation technology.

But NASA and the FAA might not have a great view of private experimentation on the scale of pressurized-tankage hypergolic fuels! Hope they've done their legal research - that's "blowing things up" on a whole different neighbourhood-levelling level!

 

A V1-pattern ramjet isn't hard to do, you can do it with cooking propane! And it's just aviation technology.

But NASA and the FAA might not have a great view of private experimentation on the scale of pressurized-tankage hypergolic fuels! Hope they've done their legal research - that's "blowing things up" on a whole different neighbourhood-levelling level!
The Feds don't go back into that part of Missouri. Not in small numbers, anyway.

 

Please keep us updated
sounds more than interesting

 

Please keep us updated sounds more than interesting
No problem there. Those boys are always up to something insane.

 

No problem there. Those boys are always up to something insane.

It sounds to me like they should be employed by NASA

Regards
Tom

 

It sounds to me like they should be employed by NASA

Regards
Tom
They are both veterans of the USN, doing thing that went bang. I guess they just got in the habit.

 

No problem there. Those boys are always up to something insane.
Even though its a myth, this story came into mind when you mentioned your friends!!! 1995 Darwin Award: JATO Rocket Car

 

Even though its a myth, this story came into mind when you mentioned your friends!!! 1995 Darwin Award: JATO Rocket Car
I'm sure the Mythbusters influenced them. They're addicted to that show. And to the carnage. I haven't been near their house since the water heater episode first aired. (The last one only made it worse, I imagine.)

 

The Feds don't go back into that part of Missouri. Not in small numbers, anyway


It sounds to me like they should be employed by NASA


Oh I somehow think that when they start trying to buy the volatiles they'll be "at the government's pleasure" quickly enough - just not in the way meant above!

O-P...seriously advise them to find out the legal ramifications of purchasing their fuels on the open market; here in the UK, for instance, the security forces happened upon a group of bombers a few years back because of the quantity of hydrogen peroxide they tried to buy. It's a resgistered explosive....as well as a rocket fuel...as well as a hair treatment!

Better they ASK the Feds in advance or advice they MAY need a purchasing/storage explosives licence, in the UK they would....BEFORE they receive The Knock.

Problem is - if they're detected buying listed explosives without going down the approved path NOWADAYS - The Knock will be a Waco style one...! :mellow:

HOWEVER - there IS a way to shortcircuit that process. As I'm sure you know, amateur rocketry is quite big in the U.S. (and in parts of the U.K ) {tho' here in N.I. it's more usually amateur mortary! } A local club should -

A/ have good relations with the authorities

B/ be able to advise them on license and storage issues

 

Oh I somehow think that when they start trying to buy the volatiles they'll be "at the government's pleasure" quickly enough - just not in the way meant above!

O-P...seriously advise them to find out the legal ramifications of purchasing their fuels on the open market; here in the UK, for instance, the security forces happened upon a group of bombers a few years back because of the quantity of hydrogen peroxide they tried to buy. It's a resgistered explosive....as well as a rocket fuel...as well as a hair treatment!

Better they ASK the Feds in advance or advice they MAY need a purchasing/storage explosives licence, in the UK they would....BEFORE they receive The Knock.

Problem is - if they're detected buying listed explosives without going down the approved path NOWADAYS - The Knock will be a Waco style one...! :mellow:

HOWEVER - there IS a way to shortcircuit that process. As I'm sure you know, amateur rocketry is quite big in the U.S. (and in parts of the U.K ) {tho' here in N.I. it's more usually amateur mortary! } A local club should -

A/ have good relations with the authorities

B/ be able to advise them on license and storage issues
Well, considering that they intend on making their own fuel, I doubt purchasing would be an issue. And they have licenses for explosives. Part of their work area is blasted out of our native limestone. (They stopped when they hit a series of caverns.)

 

Ooooooh, another Wile E. Coyote episode coming up

 

Ooooooh, another Wile E. Coyote episode coming up
Without a doubt. I'm not going to be anywhere near their test site or I would put a youtube up. (And people would be swearing it's a fake anyway.)

 

Get them to set up a live webcam we can all look in on!

...preferably on a DVD recorder in case we miss the "big" moment...!