Hello Mike , Where are getting all this info from ? do you have copies of these that Drew recomended ? In the past i have looked at war diaries at Kew and its a bit of chance to get really clear info from them ! understandably as the poor guy typing it was otherwise engaged in other matters.! Very interesting none the less. Derrick
I am not disputing that this group landed. But not on Sword. Being we were all over Normandy in small groups, we would have known, or seen them. Did they come in later on another beach? For there was no trace of them where we were. All units were under command Third British Infantry div. All the units are very well known, 8th brigade 185 brigade and 9th brigade. Being we took part in so many different operations in front of Caen, the arrival of that unit would soon be known about. They were not... Nor did we ever come across them.... Its a very odd story this post? Not that it matters a hoot. Again with respect...Did this old Veteran suffer from age related memory....Why I say this, is that my old platoon officer asked me to send him what I recall as his family had asked him to write his memoirs and he could not recall. I am fortunate in having a fine "Long term memory" Though not perfect after 60 years. To show how memory plays tricks with some. I have had arguments where Vets have said that they never took part in an operation, where I was able to show that they did... Memory plays odd tricks and even odder as time flies by.... Cheers Sapper
Derek, I do not have the KRRC War Diaries. I have all the War Diaries for the 50 or so units which operated Sword Beach as part of 101 Beach Sub Area, some of the War Diaries for 104 Beach Sub Area which operated Gold. None (yet) for Juno. I have the Landing Tables for all three beaches, some 1000 pages. These generally only cover D Day. I am not even sure that tables for the period after D Day still exist, though they did once. I have the War Establishment tables for all units in 21 Army Group, the orders and reports for 1 Corps which controlled Sword and Juno and a huge amount of material relating to the naval aspects. None are any help in telling where 2 KRRC landed or when. War Diaries are very variable. Some include a large number of appendices with fascinating detail while others are very sparse. Still the 2 KRRC diaries are your best bet. Mike.
Derek, I have just received a copy of a page from Force Movement Tables courtesy of a forum member who is working on this. It shows the following. 593 men and 137 vehicles of 2 KKRC moved from Worthing to Southampton to embark on LSTs on D+1. These were part of a convoy of eight LSTs and one LSI(L) which were scheduled to land on Juno on D+3. A good start. Only 25 years of service to trace. Mike
Hello Derrick, Good find Mike! Just to make everybody happy, it might very well be that some of these LST or LSI(L) planned for JUNO actually discharged some of their load on SWORD... although the opposite was rather the norm. I've checked the Landing Tables First Tide for SWORD and First & Second Tide for GOLD and they do not contain any mention of 2 KRRC. Michel
Excellent work guys, its all very interesting, I'm finding this search for accurate info very intriguing....i have sent off for Franks service record so when i receive it I'll post it....probably with a load of q's. Which unit coordinated the arrival of the LST/LSI(L)as it ?.... was it a Navy task to record the Landing Tables and then this information was then passed to the shore and then typed up by the army guy ? any thoughts ? this hopefully will be confirmed in the KRRC diaries, 593 men i'd like to think Frank was amongst these brave men.. Derrick
This is what I have thought may have been the case when I first saw the enquiry. Over the years I have interviewed a number of Normandy Veterans and I have come across a few instances where something like this did happen, or at least it did according to their testimony. For example, there are one or two cases I can think of where the Veteran told me they were supposed to have landed on one beach but they landed on one of the others. I can also recall my uncle (who was in the RAMC attached to 3rd British Infantry Division) telling me about the Normandy Landings (Sword Beach, 8 June, D + 2). On the first attempt to land a German plane few across so the landing craft tuned round and went back out to sea for a time and they landed at the second attempt. I have just come across the following website dedicated to the 4th Armoured Brigade which states that the Brigade embarked in the UK on 6 June and the first elements disembarked on Sword Beach on the morning of 7 June: http://www.desertrats.org.uk/bde/4thAB1944.htm Unfortunately, the website does not quote the sources used, nor does it state which battalions disembarked on Sword Beach. But, if Zola 1's Uncle Frank was with 2 KRRC in 1944 it is feasible that he embarked on 6 June and disembarked in Normandy on 7 June. Hopefully, when Uncle Frank's service record is confirmed it should be relatively easy to work out timeline and locations. Brian (Sapper) - I assume you must have been fairly close to where my uncle was based during the Battle of Normandy? For several weeks he was based at Plumetot, which is about 2 Kms (c. 1 1/4 miles) SW of Hermanville-sur-mer and about the same distance from Douvres-la-Délivrande. These days, all these places are a lot quieter than you would remember them. Best wishes to all.
Looking at the breakdown of units 2nd Br where amongst quite a few other units and it would be easy to be displaced and as you say land the wrong beach. Thank you for the information. Derrick
Can you rescan just the photo of him in beret in doorway so we get a better look at cap badge. Hi Owen, Took it to a pro photographer and he was unable to get the cap badge any clearer, when you look at it under high magnification it was blurred ! the original photo is'nt high enough resolution. I'll wait for Franks service record and try to correlate it to the photo...looks like a desert location to me ? Any chance of upping the (Max. single file size: 2MB)... Derrick
IT sounds very much like he was In the Canadian sector. I can assure anyone had that unit been in the Sword area of operations it would have been known about. I have never heard of them till I tread this post.... So it is my guess the Canada lot?
Thanks Sapper, As soon as i get Franks service record I'll hopefully be able to confirm details, Drew has kindly let me know the War Diaries of the KRRC, around that time. So it will hopefully be a good source of research material. Here are some more photos, any thoughts on dates etc ? to me it looks post ww2... with that picture of a Land Rover in the third shot ? Derrick
I have the KRRC's history up to 1942 - I would have thought some members on here have the other volume covering 1944.
Thanks Drew, any info on the KRRC, I'd like to get some reading done on.... Side note giving some brief info on my Dad (RE 1943-46) and Uncle Frank (KRRC 1944- 47). Frank was born in Colchester in 1925, then the family moved to a small village just outside called Weeley..this is where he left from to join up....unfortunately i have no living relatives to chat to about this ! (my mother is 83years young),,,,but only really knew Frank after 1969 when he left the army and came to live in Bedford. Frank and my late Dad were 19yrs and 21yrs respectively, Frank at Normandy D-Day and Dad at Naples.... So much to find out eh, its a passion of mine.
All I can recommend is the unit war diaries and Annals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps: http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=7615510700&searchurl=bi%3Dh%26bt.x%3D70%26bt.y%3D11%26n%3D100121503%26tn%3DAnnals%2Bof%2Bthe%2BKing%2527s%2BRoyal%2BRifle%2BCorps Just realised I have a copy of Swift and Bold too. That covers all of WW2, I'll be right back.....
The 2nd Battalion landed on the 9th June with 4 Armoured Brigade and 12th Battalion landed on the 16th June with 8th Armoured Brigade. The 12th Battalion landed on Courseulles-sur-Mer. No location is given for the 2nd Battalion.
Apologies for late reply, been on double shift.. Here is a paragraph from the KRRC website http://www.krrcassociation.com/history/europe.htm The Regiment in Normandy The first five months of 1944 were a period of intensive training for the three service battalions in England, the 2nd, 8th and 12th. The 2nd Battalion, under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel W. Heathcoat-Amory, landed with the 4th Armoured Brigade in Normandy on 7th June, with motor companies under the command of armoured regiments, each regiment supporting one of the three brigades of the 51st (Highland) Division. The Battalion was continually in action, mostly with motor companies under their armoured regiments, the Brigade supporting various infantry divisions in turn. as you say no exact location is given ?....in your copy of Swift and Bold http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/publication/18077 does it just repeat the paragraph above ? the war diaries might be useful, a trip down to Kew.. the book as well, mind you soon as i saw the author was a Brigadier & a Lt Col my initial enthusiasm dropped.. The Annals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps, Volume VII 1943 - 1965 Brigadier Giles H. & Nixon, Lt-Col Roger F. Mills i did buy RE book that had a similar title, it was dry as dust to read and had no real information. Thank you for the tips, more searching eh. Derrick
Just got a letter from the Historic Disclosure dept at Glasgow, they have a long backlog of various applications, so it could be nine months before i get my Uncle Franks service record. I'm going to try and see if i can a get a response from the KRRC association ?, i'm not sure that they would have a list of actual soldiers ........(also this is on the assumption that Frank was in the 2nd Btn.... as he recalled ). http://www.krrcassociation.com/contact/contact.htm Any thoughts on any paths/alternatives ? Derrick
Derrick While you are waiting for his service record PLEASE take his medals to someone who knows what he is doing as the photo shows the back of the medals which would mean that the defence is the ONLY one correct and the rest ass - backwards - the ribbons being a disgrace... Cheers
