Lieutenant Ellis Way

I guess that is as fitting a place as any, the new school being off the road named after the chap.

Cheers

Pete

 

B-24 Cheshunt

Having viewed this link below, myself and the Chapman family are deeply offended by the comment by Mr Havis on the "disappearing fireman", this is all totally false, the fireman in question was George Chapman, he did not disappear from the crash site with the fire station vehicle with pump trailer plus all the 30ft lengths of hose, all this was still on the crash site at Cheshunt when US personal arrived in two ambulances having travelled from AAF Bovington, Station 112, to collect the remains of the crew from the crashed B-24


BBC - Cheshunt to finally recognise WWII airmen

 

As an eye witness to the Liberator crash at Waltham Cross August 12th 1944 I am astounded at all the research and hard work that has gone on to discover the truth about what actually happened on that fateful morning. Sadly many avenues have been traveled that have not reached a conclusion and wrong answers have been assumed.
Many conclusions have been dismissed as impossible and doubt has even been cast on the pilots efforts to miss the town of Cheshunt. So let the truth at last be known it is both simple and tragic and for those who wish to dispute it TOUGH because this is how it was.
Like many mornings from 06.30 on wards as a lad of 15 I would stand at the bottom of our garden with my father watching the awesome site of hundreds of aircraft pass over in a continuous roar. On this particular morning it was dull with very low cloud and quieter than usual, soon around 08.00 a group of Liberators approached approximately from the S/W and almost following the railway line towards Theobalds Grove station.
Suddenly and to our horror a group of twin engined bombers possibly Marauders approached but from the opposite direction and at a similar height, one of these eventually clipped the tail fin of one of the last in the formation.
The Marauder carried on as though nothing had happened but the Liberator went into a left turn and shallow dive, it shot over the Cheshunt to Waltham Cross main road then found itself heading back towards Cheshunt town centre, with all engines roaring at full throttle the pilot managed to lift its nose very briefly before repeating the sequence until it finally ploughed into the farm with a sickening thud and a cloud of smoke.
It took only a matter of about three minutes, whilst it is obvious the pilot was desperate to save himself and his crew I can at least give him the benefit of the doudt that he did indeed save the town and we honour them all for that.
In all the reports I have read no one has ever mentioned the fitting salute given to their comrades on the afternoon of that day, a Thunderbolt a Mustang and a Lightning flew in formation around the column of smoke, went into a dive towards the remains pulling up into a prince of wales feathers type of display and disappeared
I have carried those three minutes in my mind ever since and though I left the area in 1947 I Have never failed to salute the crash site when visiting.

 

B-24 Cheshunt

About he previous story the problem is that I have a folder full of reports very similar to this one, but this has to be the best so far, the only problem is your report has not considered the weather conditions that prevailed on that Saturday 12 Aug 1944, the south-east of England had a blanket of dense cloud estimated to be about 8'000 ft thick and oppressive "blotting out any sound". Its just not possible for yourself and other people to report that they had seen a mid-air or any Aircraft under these conditions, "x-ray eyes would have been essential", which renders much of your story to fail,This b-24H Liberator (a/c #023 took off from Wendling Norfolk at 0528hr all the b-24s on this mission 29 were required to "assemble" form up over their air base but due to the very dense cloud it was chaotic, then proceeding south reaching Waltham Abbey at 15'000ft South-East of Cheshunt, still climbing departing the south coast Brighton at 17'500ft, "not flying west to east", you question my report of Aircraft positions over Kent each Aircraft that left a report also had to state its exact location when the visual took place, a standard order as you should know?, you appear to be very confused on all of this, the only other two Aircraft involved in this incident was a P-38 that flew over the remains of B-17 Thomahawk Warrior that crashed at Lude Farm, High Wycombe, other comments are quite baffling "Prince of Wales feathers display" do not fit with the crash that day.
Just a word to Merlin about the Cheshunt b-24 memorial, do not be put off by the report that it was hard to get planing permission, your only going to get a problem by filling in a application that has totally false details that just did not take place, no funding will be considered, the Council is switched on to what has happened in the past, and you must find a brown fill site for the memorial.

John

 

John

Am I right in thinking that the B24 lost power over Kent, and must have peeled off from formation - thus gliding down to its conclusion in Cheshunt?

Pete

 

Cheshunt 1944
Pete

If you read this it will give you some indication on how the Liberator managed to stay airborne till the crash at Cheshunt. I hope to update my article in the near future with many never seen photos etc.
I just wonder how many more crazy stories we are going to get on this crash, to me it is some people must manipulate a situation for their own inflated ego



B-24 42-7468 Article


John

 

For years various people have tried to solve the cause of this accident, all of them never actually saw what happened but have tried to put 2 and 2 together always arriving at 5 and yet when at last an eye witness finally comes forward he is accused of trying to claim fame or building an ego for himself etc etc.
At my age the days of building ego's has long since past, what happened is what happened and no matter how many files there are out there they will never change the final 4 minutes of this aircraft.
It is on record as to its position at 07.45, its last 3/4minutes of flight was as seen by me, you can come to your own conclusion on what happened during the intervening ten minutes or so but only the crew would have known that.
My report is fact without ego or self gratification, only sadness for the memories of that day.

 

B-24 Liberator. Cheshunt. 12 August 1944.

THE FORGOTTEN FIREMAN CHEATS DEATH BY SECONDS

This has to be told, many who read this will find what I am about to tell you very puzzling, especially families of the lost crew, because it will not fit into the events that have taken place in January 2011 at Cheshunt. What you are about to read is absolutely true, I am very close to this because it concerns my family. I myself was not far from the B-24 Liberator when it blew-up so this is all very personal to me. The only other place you will find a record of this is in MY SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH

On the 12 August 1944, just after 0800hr the fire station at Cheshunt "Gew's Corner" received a phone call that a aircraft had crashed and was on fire, in a field next to the Cambridge Arterial Road, "location" Maxwell's Farm. A fireman was sent in the hope of saving the crew of this aircraft, this fireman was my Uncle George Chapman on arrival he was approached by a nurse she said I have seen some of the airman but they are not moving, George said do not go back it may blow-up at any time, he then ran out the first 30 feet canvas fire hose from the pump-trailer, he had just returned to the trailer to pick up the next real of hose when the Liberator bomber blew-up. when he had recovered finding himself wedged under the fire trailer, that he said had saved his life, how lucky can you be he said, had I been at the end of the first hose I would have been killed. Unfortunately this brave and unselfish effort by the only fireman present that day did not saved the 10 American airman.

After my Dad was killed in Jan 1944 during an air-raid, George used to call in occasionally to see if we were ok when on his way home from the fire station, George was a very caring and sincere Uncle nothing was to much trouble "This is why all the INFORMATION contained here is correct."


After the crash mum asked George about the airmen that were in the b-24 Liberator his reply was all blown to pieces, identification would have been virtually impossible.
Later that morning "crash day", George had finished dampening down much of the smouldering wreckage, with police in attendance keeping all the onlookers some distance away, because it was still a possibility that a stray bomb was left that had not exploded.

Eventually US personal arrived in two ambulances having travelled from AAF Bovingdon, station 112, their task was to collect the remains, George conferred with the Senior NCO then the crash site was sealed to the American recovery team. Regarding what you have read elsewhere NO other person was allowed onto this crash site. A collection of the crew was made then transported to the American Military Cemetery, Madingly, Cambridge for identification.

Some days after the crash George called in and not looking to good, mum said what's up George, he made some comment about he was unable to get rid of a taste in his mouth I never did understand this comment, but while serving in the RAF in the early 50-ts I was at a jet fighter crash (a collision between two aircraft) I then understood what Georges comment was all about.

This b-24 crash has become very controversial in so many ways, a researcher in the US and two in the UK have tended to play down this fireman's existence, one attempting to manipulate to his own benefit, to them George existence did not fit into their planned outcome, but unfortunately for them he was the only person that made any attempt to save the lives of ten brave young American airman on 12 August 1944,

I am still researching on this crash information has come to light and it concerns the nurse that spoke to Uncle George when he first arrived, she was a Army Nurse, Medical Corps, billeted in Cromwell Avenue, Cheshunt, at the time of the crash she may have been on her way to the Italian POW Camp No 1003 at Bullsmoor Lane, some time after the crash she wrote to the family of T/Sgt Stanley Jankowski the Flight Engineer." why just Jankowski"

The nurse had said to George that she had seen some of the airmen ("possibly three, but was never stated") this was most probably from the cockpit. Orders state that the Flight Engineer is required to assist the Pilot and Co-Pilot by sitting between then to help in a recovery if the aircraft had a extreme engine fault, Jankowski would have had all the technical knowledge to attempt this. "Uncanny" did she see Jankowski in the cockpit with Ellis and Salsby or was it just a coincidence" we shall never know why she wrote only to the Jankowski family.

This is to the memory of George Chapman the only Fireman to attempt the rescue of 10 American Airmen at Cheshunt on the 12 August 1944, at 0800hr.

John

 

I live just down the road from this site and find it fascinating.

If any eyewitnesses could email me please - through this website that would be fantastic, as I'd love to make a short youtube documentary on this with my cousin if possible.

Things do still not quite add up in my mind, and I'd just like to try and straighten things out somewhat, and take this story to a wider audience if possible.

 

Swiper, thats a brilliant idea. I would offer to help, but being in New Zealand, its a tad hard haha

I've never heard of this roadway, or the crash for that matter, but I am very interested now

 

I'm lending my cousin with a very exciting WW2 project at the moment (very small scale however!) Which should be online very soon, and think this would be an excellent second piece.

 

I think you should give us here at ww2t sneak preview haha

 

Swiper, Mission impossible I would say, no person is alive to give you a correct picture of the actual crash site and crater, if fireman George Chapman was alive he could do this, but unfortunately he is no longer with us, the photos I have do not give a clear overall picture. After the crash recovery team departed on Sunday 13th all resemblance of a crash site was gone. If you do go ahead with this for gods sake please make sure you tell the truth.

John

 

B-24 LIBERATOR CRASH CHESHUNT 12 AUGUST 1944

I have had a few strange comments on my article THE FORGOTTEN FIREMAN, unfortunately I am alone on this one after 66 years , it is only myself that can look after the integrity of Fireman George Chapman. You may ask why.

When my article MY SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH was sent to b-24 net to be included on the web site, it was considered that the part that covered the crash site at Cheshunt was to graphic, and would have to be changed as it would not be palatable for the family's and relatives of the deceased crew, this I duely changed on the 23 April 2009,

Prior to this I had received this email from b-24 net, (part pasted below)

Monday, 20 April, 2009 10:37:08 PM
As for David Parnell, I know he has met several times with Ernie Havens,
who was 15 years old at the time and the first firefighter on the scene; he
removed the bodies of nine of the airmen. He also is quoted as saying,
"The explosion was so severe, the 10th serviceman, Sgt William McGinley,
was found six weeks later, more than 200 yards away together with an
unexploded bomb near his side."


"This is just a farcically account and has no relation to the real crash site at Cheshunt"

In the corresponding emails Tison attempted to verify information in the above email, as it bore no resemblance to my text, then only to find that mine to be correct, I received total denial on all my concerns about the details contained in this email, of a fifteen year old boy that had not long left school. I can only conclude that it was better to go along with the above content, and not to jeopardise the Memorial that had lost the first funding application, if the application contained the same wording as the email it would have been rejected as unrealistic, I sensed then that the only Fireman George Chapman present that day, was not relevant and was going to be dismissed totally, even more confusing are reports of the crash site by Havis, that kept changing in every article that was printed in the press.


From Tison, b-24 net
At the National Archives, I found the Group Burial File for McGinley,
Jankowski, and Holling. At the top of the "Report of Burial" for each man
is typed "Corrected copy, Mass Burial, only recoverable remains."
Identical information is given for each man: the date of death was 12 Aug
1944, time and date of burial was "1500 hrs 19 Aug 44. Re-interred 14 Feb
45. Cambridge Amer. Mil.Cem. Grave 24, Row 1." I cannot tell if Grave 24,
Row 1 is where they were buried on 19 Aug 44 or where they were reburied on
14 Feb 45.

For each man, it said Cause of Death: "Airplane Crash, Multiple compound
fractures." How were remains identified? "Impossible to identify by
personal recognition, effects, DIR [dental charts], fingerprints or
clothing marks. Known only by loading list." It also says, "This grave
contains the Only Recoverable Remains" of McGinley, Holling, and Jankowski.


Some time after this I had a email from a close friend, and it stated that it was possible that in the book about this b-24 Liberator crash that Havis was going to be written in as the 37 year old Fireman George Chapman, how disgusting is that.

A select group of people were unable or not willing to except the true facts of that day in 1944. Fortunately I am still alive to look after the integrity of Fireman George Chapman, and will go on to do so. This is why the article was written in the first place, if history is going to be changed to suite the historian we have no hope of ever getting the TRUTH, I hope all that read this think hard and long before making a statement if not sure of the true facts.


John.

 

A Wartime Crash
On the 12th August 1944, a US Air Force B24 Liberator bomber crashed on farmland near Cheshunt, killing all ten airmen on board, an incident commemorated in the name of a nearby road, Lieutenant Ellis Way.


http://www.hertsmemories.org.uk/page_id__1965_path__0p2p99p.aspx