Hello, I'm investigating the losses of allies planes over Munich during the night of December 17-18 1944. From my researches online, I know 8 missions didn't come back from the RAF over Munich that night, but I didn't find nothin about the US missions. Thank you for your help.
You are in Luck! These chaps have researched this operation extensively. Brilliant work! One Night In December My father and his crew bombed Duisburg at dawn on the 18th. The Night Raid Reports can be accessed here. There is no mention of the activities by the USAAF that night. The USAAF sometimes mounted small night raids with B-24’s from the 492 Bomb Group and 100-Group tagged along for the ride, windowing and dropping TI’s.. Note that this was the start of the Ardennes offensive and the USAAF may have been occupied elsewhere. The Bomber Command “Night Raid Report” B.C. (O.R.S.) Final Reports on operations. No 794 IN B.C. (O.R.S.). Night Raids. Nos. 621-914, June 1944-May 1945 (Complete). National Archives AIR 14/3412. Jim
Wow, the whole podcast (27hours?) is about that night? When you said "The Night Raid Reports can be accessed here", you mean in the podcast? Do you know how to contact the guys in the podcast? I might have informations about that night, that they dont know, specifically about the crash on Munich.
Yes, but there are extensive write-ups on that site as well. They have a contacts page. I have had communications with them but sometimes it takes a while for them to reply. Sorry, This is the link for the Night Raid Reports. Note I have edited my post above to include the full citation for the Night Raid Reports. lancasterbombersinfo.ipage.com/Data/NRR/1944/Dec-44/mobile/index.html If you PM me your email address, I will send you high resolution images of the relevant pages. Theo Boiten's Nachtjagd War Diaries has info on the events that night as well. I have this as well. The short summary is, there were no reported Nachtjagd claims for the Munich raid that night. I have a primary source historical document that outlines the 100-Group actions that night. Jim
Thank you JDCAVE and Itdan. I tried to send my email address by PM, but it seems I can't, or I didn't find the way to do it. Maybe it's not allowed to new members of the forum. You could maybe use wetransfer dot com to transfer big files, it's handy and easy to use, drag and drop the files on the page, and then copy paste the download link. You can PM me the link after, it's valid for one week. I was off for a couple of days, but now it's OK.
Thank you, I'll wait to reach 5 then. I'll tell more detail about my investigation. On this page ( 40. Rob’s Raid Analysis Part 6. Homeward Bound. ), it is said that LM676 crashed near Freimann barracks. « Beer’s squadron colleagues, F/O Amey and crew in LM676, were the victims of enemy flak over Munich and crashed in the northern part of the town, close to the Freimann Barracks. F/O Amey and the F/E, Sgt Livesey, were thrown clear by the explosion. Amey died in captivity two weeks later, a combination of his injuries and pneumonia. Sgt Livesey became a POW. It is not certain whether or not this crew had completed their bombing run by the time they were hit, but the records show they were shot down at 22.00 hrs so probably not. » But I read a book that says an allied plane crashed on his barrack, but the barrack was 5 km south-west of the Freimann barracks. So I'm trying to decide if that plane was the LM676 or not. Here is an illustrated screenshot of google maps showing the distance between the crash sites. There were 8 losses from the RAF that night in the Munich mission, the LM676 is the only one that could match. But to me, a 5 km difference is a lot, so I'm trying to find other explanations for that crash on the Neumeyer camp (In Hanauerstrasse) described by the book I'm reading. These are the things I'm trying to decide : Could it be a plane from the US Air force? There were other targets/towns that night, coud it be a RAF plane from another mission that night? Maybe the book writer did a mistake on the date in his report, and it was not the night of 17-18 dec 1944, maybe a couple of days before or after. I don't think he made a mistake, because he noted all the dates of the bombings on Munich while they happened. But you can't never know so I have to investigate the possibility that he made a mistake on the date.
Only one Lancaster seems to have crashed directly in Munich on this date https://aircrewremembered.com/Allie...d=&exc1=&exc2=&search_type=exact&search_only= The crash is documented at the Freiman barracks history (then: General Wever barracks) During the course of the Second World War, the Freimann barracks were repeatedly hit by isolated bombs, but there is no evidence of a targeted bombing raid on the barracks complex. Only the official residence (now Building 3) of the standard commander was largely destroyed by the crash of a four-engined Avro Lancaster of the Royal Air Force. https://opus4.kobv.de/opus4-fizbw/f...233/file/Lange_DieKaserneMuenchenFreimann.pdf
Thank you very much that's very interesting. I made a research on the whole month of december 1944 on this site ( https://aircrewremembered.com/Allie...en&exc1=&exc2=&search_only=&search_type=exact ), and the LM676 is the only one who crashed on Munich. The LM729 crashed "near Munchen". The crash of an allied plane on the Neumeyer camp of the Hanauerstrasse is confirmed by 2 different testimonies. One of them, wrote a book, his name is Paul FOURTIER and he was a French forced worker living in the Hanauerstrasse camp. Here is an extract, translated from French, of the story of this plane crash, page 251. « [...] The plane has disintegrated, spraying its innermost substance in the rain, and with no point of descent, there's no way of finding a piece of wing or tail. Tomorrow, at daylight, we'll know more.[...] On a clear Sunday morning, sparkling with hoarfrost, the material debris in the camp was collected and made into small piles. The Czech and his boss each carry a Kraft paper bag and collect the human fragments scattered across the lawn. [...] At the bottom of the central hole lies an isolated object, a broomstick, stripped of its linkages. [...] Three whole, lifeless bodies were lowered from the trees. The guys standing at the entrance to the shelter saw the huge aircraft coming. It lacked ten meters of altitude to reach the meadow alongside the gasworks and land... [...] "Five men! In top form! And suddenly, nothing, a few shreds, a heel!" [...] Elsewhere in their British Isles, others will suffer in their turn, and all this pain, so much heartbreak, is just a drop in an ocean of misery. » Note that Paul FOURTIER indicates that they cleaned up the camp the next day, on a Sunday morning. It's supposed to be December 18, 1944, but 18th of December 1944 was a Monday, so there's a slight inconsistency here. This account was written well after the events, so a few errors are understandable. On the other hand, the date December 17 to 18 seems to be accurate, for the following reasons: In an annex document at the end of the book, Paul FOURTIER lists all the 43 bombings on Munich while he was there from 6 sept 1943 to 25 april 1945, and one of the 43 lines is : « 17-18 december 1944 British plane crashes into camp / night » About the precision of this list of bombings, he talks about it page 240 : « I wanted to keep a diary. I repressed the urge for fear of one day being betrayed by my writings [...]. All I have are a few dates and terse notes on scraps of paper, but also a precise and eloquent list of bombings. » Considering all this elements, and the database of lost allied planes, this is a mystery to me, none of the planes in the database fits the description of Paul FOURTIER. The crash of a Lancaster seems to be confirmed on Freimann barracks because of the pdf you found ( https://opus4.kobv.de/opus4-fizbw/f...233/file/Lange_DieKaserneMuenchenFreimann.pdf ), but we don't have the precise date, maybe that could be investigated, but I didn't find more information on this. Maybe the LM729 could be investigated too. On this page ( 40. Rob’s Raid Analysis Part 6. Homeward Bound. ) it is said « LM729, piloted by Canadian pilot F/L Newland, of fellow Skellingthorpe squadron, 61 Sqn, was shot down 38 km south west of Munich at 22.15 hrs, close to the town of Degerndorf. The Rear Gunner, Sgt Joce, survived and became a POW. He later reported that a photo-flash went off inside the aircraft during the straight and level run after they had dropped their bombs. This loss will be subject of a later blog post and podcast, thank you Deborah ! »We don't know the crash site for this one, but is it possible the crash site is 40km away from the place it was shot down ? [edit > it seems we know, the plane «crashed near Degerndorf SW of München» according to Theo Boiten in "Nachtjagd Combat Archive - 1944 - Part 5"] [edit > Something else I noticed in the Theo Boiten in "Nachtjagd Combat Archive - 1944 - Part 5". The LM729 is said «hit by München-based Flak and crashed near Degerndorf» but the LM676 is said «hit by München-based Flak, blew up, and crashed near Freimann military barracks». The difference is «blew up», but it might be important, would it be possible that the plane split in 2 parts, the main part fell in the workers' camp, and the other part on the Freimann barracks ?]
