Regulars vs Conscripts

Discussion in 'General' started by Belgian Dave, Sep 27, 2013.

  1. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    Something that I have often thought about:

    Was there any rivalry, antagonism, superiority, etc between regular troops and conscripted troops?

    I would imagine that there was. It happens in all workplaces, whatever the task in question. Especially these days, people have worked in a company for years, and then suddenly they bring in some interim workers that have to be trained up. I know whats thats like, there is a divide, even if its not evident in everyday working.

    I can see why the regular troops would feel (if its the right word) 'superior' to conscripts. Surely the regular troops were better trained and had far more experience of course?
    Was this used by the commanders, for example, giving easier tasks to the units made up from conscripts, and using the regulars to complete the more difficult tasks?

    I also would be interested to know what effect war had on regular troops. How many joined up wanting to make a career in the military, and then after going into battle realised that was enough, and left after the war, instead of carrying on till retirement? The other way around to, did many conscripts then go on to join up and make a career in the military, when beforehand, it was something they had not considered?
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Well they couldn't leave in wartime.
    But on the forum we have had quite a few members researching family members who were in the Infantry who when they came back from France in 1940 transfered to the non-fighting arms such as CMP, RASC , etc etc.
     
  3. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I did'nt word it well. I meant how many left after the war, when their intention was to stay in the military until retirement. I'll edit the original post.
     
  4. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Clever. Evolution at work.

    My grandfather survived six years of war (of which almost three on the eastern front) by being a private/NCO in an artillery survey battalion, which limited his frontline excitement to a large extent (while still doing frontline work, most was outside small arms range). Had he been in the infantry he'd have copped it at some point no doubt.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  5. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Interesting points thrown up here and I'd like to offer my two penny's worth.

    My own service was divided into time spent with two main units.

    I started off in LAA and was with them from April '43 till December '44.

    My second main unit was the 4th QOH and I was with them from March '45 till December ''46

    In the first unit I would guess that 95% were conscripts & 5% regulars, the regulars being mainly senior NCOs & warrant officers.

    In my second unit I would guess that the proportion of regulars went up to 10%, or even 15%, simply because the 4th QOH went back to the Charge of the Light Brigade days.

    One interesting point was that when the war ended and it came time for "us conscripts" to leave the regiment we were all offered inducements to stay on in the regular army. I remember writing about it here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/30/a2166130.shtml

    Ron
     
  6. mapshooter

    mapshooter Senior Member

    Regulars is somewhat meaningless in this context. What about the reg reservists who were recalled for service? What about those who volunteered for the TA well before the war?
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Mapshooter has a point.

    For example, the 4th QOH were virtually wiped out in Greece as mentioned in Wikipedia :

    I would guess that when it was re-constituted the ratio of regulars to conscripts would have altered dramatically !

    Ron
     
  8. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    You are right, if we include reserves,TA, etc. Maybe it should be looked at as a hierarchy:

    Regular (currently in service)
    Regular Reserves (Maybe the longtime experience against everyday service of the current regulars has to be thought about)
    TA
    Conscripts

    Maybe to also say, this is not intended to discredit any group, just to provoke discussion to the original question.
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Never had any problem from any regulars I met as they were most anxious that we learned to stay alive and thus an espirit de corps was built up from entry...later on joining a regiment I was welcomed as a reinforcement for a regular who had been KIA - but not once in my presence was his name mentioned..at the end of the war many regulars left BUT many senior regulars stayed on to guide the new regulars who signed up for three and more years much of th problem was in the newer and reservist battalions who were pressed into service for the duration....much of the espirit de corps was built up over hundreds of years - my last regiment was founded in 1759 or thereabouts and took part in the American revolution..and just about every other battle which involved the British Army..India - Afghanistan - South Africa- South America as well...but NO air miles... !
     
  10. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    Thats an interesting point concerning the 'espirit de corps' Tom, and its part of what im trying to understand.
     
  11. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    My Dad did mention that in his Regiment, Irish Guards, there was a certain amount of sneering by some pre-war regulars about those who joined up - either voluntarily or via conscription - for the duration of the war.

    However he expressed great admiration for a few who'd been mobilised from reserves, and others who were already serving with the 1st Bn at the time war started. His two mates who joined at the same time in '43, eventually seeing action in the same platoon, signed on for another stint (ending up RSM and CQMS), as did a few more of his pals. He himself declined a special invitation by the grinning RSM, who was sitting expectantly at his desk, papers and pen in front of him - "What I said was: I was thinking about signing on again ..." Another inducement to stay in uniform, that of quick promotion in Paras offered by a good comrade who'd transferred, was also declined. Still, once he'd finished his engineering apprenticeship he did don another uniform - MN.

    I would've thought that by the time a unit had had battle experience, any difference between the regulars (in the broadest sense) and others would have been negligible. Basic Training standards would have surely been the age-old same, and the Interwar period didn't exactly allow for much experience of action anyway. Dad's battalion was reinforced in Aug '44 by a company of veterans from the 1st Battalion who had seen some very hard fighting in Tunisia and Italy. Men who had only seen action for a month or two were still transferred from other companies to that new Company, "to show them the Normandy ropes".
     
  12. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    There was no vestige of discord amongst the regulars, the volunteers, and the Conscripts in my Corps, the. RE. We all got on great.

    One thing I will say. When men were picked for a particularly dangerous mission. It was the regulars that somehow managed to become invisible in plain sight. And the young men picked for the mission in hand...That could be put down to putting the single men into danger rather than the married men? I am not sure??/
     
  13. Joe Brown

    Joe Brown WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The 7/9 Royal Scots were primarily a Territorial Battalion and although there were a few Regulars and lads who answered the call up and who joined us as welcome reinforcements there was never any distinction or discord between these Groups. We all had a common purpose: to get it over with and get back to life we enjoyed before it all started. Uniquely, we were commanded during most of the action by TA Colonels, these were excellent men one having been a Brigade Major concerned with the tactical operations of three battalions.


    Joe Brown.
     
  14. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Joe

    Spot on !

    Ron
     
  15. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    I think Joe hit the nail on the head "We all had a common purpose: to get it over with and get back to life we enjoyed before it all started."

    From what I have read, it seems that when it really comes down to it, everyone unites against the common enemy.

    I have read before about the view of the TA from regulars, the 'playing at soliders' comments, but thats during peacetime.
     
  16. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    I cannot see much in the way of regular versus conscript conflict from the memoirs or contemporary records. Pre WW2 understanding of the Army and war was shaped by the First World War. Most men aged over 40 would have experienced warfare in an army of conscripts.

    From the start of WW2 the British army was planned to be a mass army. The TA was expanded dramatically in 1938-39 and conscription introduced at the start of the War. Pre WW2 the Regular army was not seen as a career that attracted the ambitious or intelligent. As a result, some pre war old sweats who might not have warranted a tape in peacetime, might have been over promoted and exposed as stupid or inadequate by the intellectually superior conscripts in their charge. The pattern of defeats in 1940-42 meant that rather than looking up to the regulars, the pre war ideas were dismissed as blimpish. The changes in infantry training introduced from 1940-1 can be seen as a revolt against pre war regular ideas. Home Guard training drew inspiration from, the Republican veterans from the Spanish Civil war as well as British Army ideas.

    There seems to have been a distinction among officers there was a distinction between pre war regular officers who were expecting their military career tot continue afterwards and temporary war time officers expecting to do the job and go home. Command appointments above a certain level tended to be reserved for regular officers. Partially this might reflect a respect for previous training and experience gained in peacetime, but there also seemed to be some tendency to keep the jobs in the regular family. Regular officers certainly appear to have felt the pressure of the impact of wartime reports on their future careers. Those who acted in one way or another as whistle blowers, such as Lionel Wigram and the CO of 6 DWR in Normandy made reference to the carrer implications of speaking out and telling some uncomfortable truths.

    It is an interesting and under researched area.
     
  17. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    Thanks Sheldrake, I enjoyed reading your take on the subject, and you bring up some points I had not considered.
     
  18. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    My dad joined up in January 1940 - not for the duration but for eight years in the regular army with four years in the reserves (I'll check his pay books) I think the inducement was financial - the pay rates were better for long service men and he wanted to learn a trade as well. He was too young and was sent to boy's service until his 18th birthday in June 1941, when he joined the Royal Engineers proper. He joined 77 Assault Squadron of the 79th Armoured in 1943 sometime and they were a mixture of men from many other RE units and RAC drivers for armoured vehicles. In that sense they were all regulars and they didn't distinguish between duration service men and longer term servicemen. The only time it affected him was when he was recalled to the army to serve in Korea in 1950 - having only been demobbed in late 1948. The family story was always that he carried my mum over the threshold and tripped on his call up papers. He recalled national servicemen complaining about their luck in having been drafted overseas and he reminded them he'd only just got out of the army and got a job, got married, then was back in the bloody Kate! His commanding officer remembered drafts turning up at the depot with disabled blokes, policemen and other people in occupations which meant they wouldn't be sent overseas and some difficulty in finding enough experienced soldiers to comprise a Field Squadron - not for nothing was it called the 'Woolworths Brigade'. He did promise my mum that he would try to find a job that wasn't in the firing line and he did indeed become a storesman, which I suspect was because he was an old hand, but it didn't stop him being thrown a rifle when the Chinese invaded and he was wounded at the Imjin.
     

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