Sikh Remembrance Day Service

Discussion in 'British Indian Army' started by Owen, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Owen

    A timely reminder of these superb fighting men.

    The pic selected by Andy (response 2#) is a cracker, obviously not a man to pick words with !

    Ron
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Whilst I would agree with Andy's choice of pictures as being first class - a little background might put that into perspective as these same Sihks caused endless arguments particularly the Mounted policeman as once they joined and completed their training they then demanded that their Turbans were sacred to their religion and therefore cannot be deprived of wearing same in order to wear the RCMP regulation hats. This was followed by the general Sihk population demanding the same privelege in riding motor bikes without the lawful helmets - eventually the federal Government gave in to the minority and so now we have two levels of headgear for the Police and bike riders.

    What is not generally known is that this Turban is NOT by any means sacred - as it is the HAIR underneathis sacred ... as well as the Kirpan knife which is also allowed - even in schools ...and the short trousers and two more which I cannot bring to mind at this time.But they are called the five K's ...

    But underneth all this arguement is a power struggle to create a mythical Khalistan in either the very fertile Fraser Valley in which I live or the equally fertile Okanagan Valley some 250 miles NE of here and in which both areas they are buying up all available lands from fund from their temples.

    Now Andy- and others might have another thought if he were to see old women working all day from before dawn until after dusk with little food and a bottle of water picking strawberry's on their knees all day in the ten acre field across the road from my house....on the outskirts of Agassiz - but the photo's are wonderful......
    Cheers
     
  3. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    No mention of them in France during 1940 though, they were there. I have the units war diaries ;)
    During my hacking with WO 373, I noticed a number of MIDs and IDSMs in the BEF sections.
     
  4. Nigebe

    Nigebe Junior Member

    Excellent reading on this subject to is the HMSO Book from 1944 covering 1941 onwards titled "Tiger Kills". This covers the story of the Indian Divisions in the North African Campaign, a subject dear to me as my late father was in the 1st Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment and was in the middle east from 1936 untill seriously wounded ( left for dead at one point!) in 1943. Last night local news covered a piece from Derby where they plan to make a monument next to there heritage centre dedicated to Sikh soldiers lost in battle.

    What we must remember is these Devisions were made up of Sikh, Rajput, Punjabi Mussulmen, Pathnan, Garhwali, Dogra, Madrassi and Mahratta soldiers.

    Attached piece on The Omars courtesy of Royal Sussex Regimental web site.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. mattgibbs

    mattgibbs Senior Member

    And don't forget the other 2 pamphlets, The Tiger Strikes and The Abyssinian Campaign which also detail a lot of the early days efforts of 4th Indian Division and others from 1939. :D I would love to know more about the BEF war diaries relating to Indian troops if anyone can enlighten me about where they are published?
    Regards
    Matt
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    And don't forget the other 2 pamphlets, The Tiger Strikes and The Abyssinian Campaign which also detail a lot of the early days efforts of 4th Indian Division and others from 1939. :D I would love to know more about the BEF war diaries relating to Indian troops if anyone can enlighten me about where they are published?
    Regards
    Matt

    There are 8 war diaries related to Indian units in France during 1940 held at the National Archives at Kew. I thought I had them all but recently discovered there was a few more. I recently discovered one units was with the 51st Highland Division. There's a picture on here of some Indian PoW's under HQ Force K6 which I believe could well be those that were with 51st Division. There's also thread on here in the 1940 section about Indian and Cypriot troops in France during 1940 which contains some entries taken from I Corps diaries that mention the arrival and admin of Indian troops in France.
     
  7. mattgibbs

    mattgibbs Senior Member

    Thanks! I shall investigate during the course of the day/week. Luckily I am not too busy this week! :D
    Regards
    Matt
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Are you going to the National Archives at Kew?
     
  9. mattgibbs

    mattgibbs Senior Member

    Nope, I meant I'll look for the threads on here. Certainly not going to Kew. I'm managed 5 years so far doing bits of research and avoided it. :D I did get them to copy me a few things, but actually going presents a problem of childcare management and time of work that isn't easy to co-ordinate as usually my wife is working when I am not so one of us looks after the 2 girls. A fairly common shift-working problem when we both work part time.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    A bit late

    On sunday 26th September a new screen wall, bearing the names of 53 Indian soldiers who were cremated on the hills above Brighton, after dying of their wounds at the temporary hospital at Brighton Pavilion, was unveiled.


    :: CWGC ::=
     
  11. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    :lol:

    So is India still sour from the war?

    Quote from that video, "It wasn't just the Bristish who forgot them, the fact so many Indians volunteered to fight for the British empire became an embarrassment after independance. The whole subject is still sensitive".

    And shame on Mr Churchill for the way he regarded them.

    The official Indian Govt position is that it wasn't our war and our soldiers fought as instruments of colonial power. However in recent years there's a growing feeling among the Indian people that our efforts in both World Wars need to be recognised.
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi and welcome to the forum.

    Is that recognised by Indian people in India or by others outside of India?
     
  13. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    Whilst I would agree with Andy's choice of pictures as being first class - a little background might put that into perspective as these same Sihks caused endless arguments particularly the Mounted policeman as once they joined and completed their training they then demanded that their Turbans were sacred to their religion and therefore cannot be deprived of wearing same in order to wear the RCMP regulation hats. This was followed by the general Sihk population demanding the same privelege in riding motor bikes without the lawful helmets - eventually the federal Government gave in to the minority and so now we have two levels of headgear for the Police and bike riders.

    What is not generally known is that this Turban is NOT by any means sacred - as it is the HAIR underneathis sacred ... as well as the Kirpan knife which is also allowed - even in schools ...and the short trousers and two more which I cannot bring to mind at this time.But they are called the five K's ...

    But underneth all this arguement is a power struggle to create a mythical Khalistan in either the very fertile Fraser Valley in which I live or the equally fertile Okanagan Valley some 250 miles NE of here and in which both areas they are buying up all available lands from fund from their temples.

    Now Andy- and others might have another thought if he were to see old women working all day from before dawn until after dusk with little food and a bottle of water picking strawberry's on their knees all day in the ten acre field across the road from my house....on the outskirts of Agassiz - but the photo's are wonderful......
    Cheers

    Mr Canning, I'm sorry to say that your bias against the Sikhs is palpable. Try and inculcate a little understanding of others' cultures in yourself.
     
  14. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    Hi and welcome to the forum.

    Is that recognised by Indian people in India or by others outside of India?
    The contribution and sacrifices made by India, Indians and Indian soldiers in both World Wars is certainly not just recognised by Indians whether in India or abroad but a matter of great pride for them. There are numerous war memorials to those brave men, units which fought in those wars carry their battle honours with justifiable pride and events like Tofrek, Neuve Chappele, Gallipoli, Kut-el-Amara, Point 171, Alamein, Monte Cassino, Kohima, Imphal, the crossing of the Irrawady and Meiktila among others are observed with a much fervour as the battle honours of free India.

    Thats not to say that the Govt totally ignores pre-Independence wars. Ministers and officials regularly pay visits and commemorate the dead at war memorials in France, Belgium, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Singapore, Burma and Italy.

    I've been part of a few projects with the BBC and leading Indian TV channels to acknowledge India's contribution.
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Don't forget the Indians in France during 1940 ;)
     
  16. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    Hi and welcome to the forum.

    Is that recognised by Indian people in India or by others outside of India?

    Thank you Drew for the welcome. Will try and add to a better understanding of India's contribution to both World Wars. As well as learning from all you great guys !
     
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  17. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  18. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    It had been decided as far back as 1935 that Indian troops would not be inducted into any future European wars for a variety of reasons (which can be discussed in a separate thread). However there was a shortage of animal transport with the BEF which had to be overcome by the RIASC. Accordingly 'K' Force consisting of 5 x animal transport companies was sent out from India reaching France in December '39. Capt Ashdown, the Liberal leader Paddy Ashdown's father commanded one of them. Another company commander was Mohammed Akbar Khan who later became Pakistan's senior most Army officer.

    4 AT Companies, all their men and equipment were evacuated safely to England minus their mules and horses. They then served out the remainder of the war at various locations in Britain. I've received quite a few inquiries from people in the UK who ran across them at some point or another.One Company was taken POW.

    For various reasons mainly to do with supply the men were all Muslims, mainly Punjabis with some Pathans.
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    At least one didn't get out-It was attached to the 51st Highland Division and went into the bag with most of the Division in the St. Valery area.

    I have all of the units war diaries :)

    Here's a German photograph of them going into captivity

    [​IMG]
     
  20. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    I believe the Company went into captivity with all their weapons and equipment including their animals intact and accounted for, according to Compton MacKenzie's 'Eastern Epic'. Some of the men later joined the German sponsored Hind Legion.
     

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