Stirling IV LJ850 crash site located

TD could be correct ..............but from where did CDG leave France to make that speech?

 

Paimpol - or in that area I believe

TD

edited to add

Perhaps it was his wife and family that left by sea from Paimpol, because I have just read -

"On the evening of June 16, Prime Minister Reynaud resigned. On the morning of June 17, General de Gaulle left Bordeaux by plane for London. "

 

"Scavengers" that sums up Mr Graves and his team.

 

Hello Gentlemen ,

This has been discussed before on Flypast Aviation Forum :

Stirling Discovery In France

Please and once for all : the Stirling crashed at Aignerville is LJ631 , lost on 24/25 August 1944 , only one crew member killed ( pilot F/L Stanley Maunder ) and buried at Bayeux CWGC . I can forward documentation about this ! Also see earlier posts on this forum .

Laurent

 

Ho

Just found another of Mr Graves miraculous finds in Normandy - lucky he moved there

Wreckage of Lancaster bomber which crashed on D-Day killing its crew is identified | Daily Mail Online

TD

Edited to add
Annnnnnnnnd another - Charred notebook reveals the life of downed Battle of Britain Hurricane pilot | Daily Mail Online

He seems to lean on the fact that he is 'working for the families' but then how does he make any money at it - from the article above
"But now Sgt Egan's charred notebook, unearthed from his plane decades later, is to go under the hammer."

 

It looks as if the article was Daily Mail click-bait intended to get their regulars going about the French again...It is standard practice anywhere that permission is not easy to obtain in order to excavate military aircraft, isn't it ?

 

Pilot OfficerCRANE, ROBERT WILLIAM
Service Number 413533

Died 18/06/1944

Aged 24

Royal Australian Air Force

Son of William Henry and Margaret Crane, of Lithgow, New South Wales, Australia.

 

Flight SergeantJOHNSON, FRANK NORMAN
Service Number 1395038

Died 18/06/1944

Aged 29

620 Sqdn.
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve

Son of John William and Rose Lilian Johnson; husband of Eileen Mary Johnson, of Bristol.

 

Warrant Officer Class IICLASPER, JOHN PERCY
Service Number R/159971

Died 18/06/1944

620 Sqdn.
Royal Canadian Air Force

 

SergeantEVANS, DAVID WYNNE
Service Number 1407968

Died 18/06/1944

Aged 23

620 Sqdn.
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve

Son of John David and Edith Maud Evans, of Nantymoel, Glamorgan.

 

Flight SergeantSTOPFORD, GRANVILLE WILLIAM
Service Number 657479

Died 18/06/1944

Aged 25

620 Sqdn.
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve

Son of Arthur and Helen Stopford; husband of Mary Joyce Stopford, of Stonehouse, Gloucestershire.

 

Flight SergeantPROFIT, BENJAMIN JAMES
Service Number R/189226

Died 18/06/1944

Aged 31

620 Sqdn.
Royal Canadian Air Force

Son of Christine Profit; husband of Thelma Frances Profit, of North Burnaby, Vancouver, British Columbia. Canada.

 

SergeantWILDING, PHILIP
Service Number 1345156

Died 18/06/1944

Aged 22

620 Sqdn.
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve

Son of John R. and Ethel Wilding, of Glasgow.

 

Thelma and Benjamin

 

OK - applying some logic to this I have been reading Was HK559 unique? this tells us the last known position of the aircraft -
To resume, we've traced on a map all the last flight of LJ850 and a Jonathan's relative is making searches in Morvan area according to what the other pilot told to the next-of-kin of the pilot.
But Dennis Williams, the excellent writer of the book 'Stirlings in action with Airbornes Forces', sent us this new info at the start of the year 2008:
"...It's last known position from a radio fix plotted at 0050 hrs, was over the channel, outbound for France. This Stirling almost certainly went down in the sea, with its crew of six, and one officer and fourteen men of 1 SAS'."
Last known position of LJ850: 49deg58minN 00deg39minW at 0050 hours

If you plot that position (I hope I'm right here) the aircraft was about 10 miles north of the French coast between St Valery en Caux and Dieppe. One can assume it was heading on its course towards the Morvan region. It's course was nowhere near Calvados

From - Missing Stirling LJ850 - Short Stirling & RAF Bomber Command Forum -
They departed from RAF base Fairford @ 2320hrs. June17/44
There drop zone was near LaCharitee France which I believe is near the Morven moutains, the co-orinates given were 47:13N-03:37E


I would have assumed if it went down into the sea then this was due to mechanical failure, they would have had height and therefore one would assume the SAS paras would have 'baled out'. If mechanical problems why not radio back to base?

If it crashed in Calvados then one needs to assume either mechanical problems - same questions as above - or it was attacked by nightfighters and damaged, if so again why didnt 15 trained SAS paras bale out or at least a number of them.

If it flew into a hill in low cloud then all on board would have died (probably) and this would fit that none of those on board have never been found, no survivors have turned up, none were captured and made a POW thereby being able to tell their story, the only possinlity here is that there may have been the odd survivor or injured survivor that was, well, not treated properly by the Germans


TD

 

That's really the issue TD - an aircraft with paratroops having problems you'd have thought at least one would have got out before it crashed. Getting shot down, either flak or fighter claim would probably have been filed somewhere, and again, possibility of a survivor getting out.
A crash into rising ground near the DZ would be a more likely scenario, but for it to disappear with no human remains from any of the 23 aboard and a substantial amount of wreckage, 4 engines, propellors etc etc?
- and yet they name the farm 18 Juin!!!
Time and again you read of a French village that either insists on retaining aircrew etc graves that are lovingly tended, or of an aircraft that crashed that is properly excavated and remains recovered with dignity. This potentially is a site with 23 sets of remains which should make it a priority target to provide closure for 23 families. Even if it results in a communal grave, the site should be handed over to the proper authorities to prevent any further loss of evidence and identification, and any recovered items handed in.
It's not a knee jerk reaction to click bait, it's easy to sneer at newspapers but if it provokes the authorities into action, then is that a bad thing?

 

If anyone has the volume set, The SAS and LRDG Roll Of Honour 1941-47
Perhaps more detail could be found

 

I have asked the question of someone I think has the set

TD

edited to add:
In reply there is nothing specifically in the set. This doesn't surprise as without definitive details I would suspect the author would not speculate.

 

As regards the drop zone.....it's been given as La Vallotte by Ian Wellsted who was there.Looking further into it and knowing area fairly well,there well be some misunderstandings regarding spelling.

The DZ area,I believe was in the commune of Moux en Morvan....this is bang in the area of No1 SAS operations and slightly to the east of the Lac de Settons....in the commune area is Les Vallottes which appears to be a hamlet and also in the area on the south side of the lake is a farmhouse known as La Charite. I cannot find a place known as LaCharitee in the area of SAS operations but the best information as regards the area in very good detail can be found in the IGN 1-25000 scale series which I have not got a copy

From the evidence so far I am thinking the aircraft was lost at sea........it depends what positive information is revealed at Caen on 6 October. Ian Wellsted has recorded the aircraft was lost on the return to base flight...his source is not recorded.On the other hand the aircraft is thought to have been lost on the outbound flight.In either case the aircraft did not transmit any distress call.

An additional point,there seems to be a lack of claim from the Germans that they were instrumental in accounting for the aircraft by air interception or by ground fire.

[TD, you were correct in the CGD Bordeaux /England flight.]

[Many years ago I visited the airport but strayed on to what was the military site of the airfield which was known as Merignac.....there did not seen to be much going off and I was not challenged ......had a look at the single storey buildings and found in the area, a memorial recording CDG's flight to London from the then Merignac French Air Force airfield....an airfield which attracted the SOE and the Allied air forces since it was the base for the long range Condors in the U Boat Battle of the Atlantic]