I watched a really really good documentary today from the Military History Channel of the name above. This was as the title would suggest about the battle for Rome. The programme was without doubt in the same calibre of the BBC 'World at War' Series. Anyway there was a article within the programme I thought was worth sharing on here. There was a really good interview with a chap called Peter Tompkins who was in the OSS and was in Rome at the time of the Anzio Landings. He went onto say that at the time there was only around 1,500 Germans in the city and a Italian Policeman who later lost his life as a result of giving him the locations of all the Germans. Peter Tompkins-Quite a modest man in my book. Military.com Shopping: Lou Reda Films Peter Tompkin's had at his disposal some 6,000 armed partisans in Rome ready to rise up to secure the city but the order never came from the allies. Pure speculation on my part but could this have anything to do with Clarke wanting to liberate Rome himself? The programme went onto explain the circumstances around a Partisan attack at Via Rasella: On March 23, 1944, in the Via Rasella area of Rome , around 20kg of TNT was placed in a cart along a known route that a German Battalion would be parading that day. It exploded as the German unit was marching by. It killed 33 soldiers and wound some 60 more soldiers. The cart containing the expolsives When Hitler heard about this he was outraged (Nothing new there) and ordered that for every German Soldier that was killed 50 Italians must be executed. Kesselring on reading the order thought the number was to high and lowered it to 10 Italians for every German that was killed. Under the direction of SS Lt. Col. Herbert Kappler-who by all accounts seemed to have taken some pride in preparing instructions for this execution. Apparently he stayed up all night completing the lists and even went to the trouble of coldly calculating such statistics as how much ammunition would be required and exactly where the victims should be shot - the base of the head. The order was to be carried out within 24hrs so the following day some 320 Italians and Italian Jews who had no connection with the Rasella affair were taken from various prisons that were either on a death sentence, life sentence or in the case of the Italian Jews were recently rounded up and awaiting to be deported to camps and around noon were transported to the Ardeatine Caves just outside Rome. The caves were chosen due to their remote location away from any observors and it was decided after the executions the caves were to be blown up by engineers to increase the liklihood of the victims ever being found. It's quite Ironic these caves were used by Christian Martyrs several thousand years ago. Victims being rounded up The soldiers tasked with the impending mass murder were relatively green and were given some brandy to give them the courage to carry out the task of killing these people. However it soon became apparent that the Germans were getting intoxicated and any sort of order that was ment to be implace soon disappeared. The victims were originally ment to be placed into death in groups of five and taken deep into the cave to be shot. Due to the demise of any discipline it soon became a free for all and bodies were being stacked 5 feet high with victims standing on top of the bodies before being shot. The executions started around 2pm and continued until approx 8pm the same day. Here's a rather good link giving a overview of what happened at the caves. The Massacre at the Ardeatine Caves, 24 August 1944 Apparently after the incident the programme says the a newspaper that was the voice of the Vatican published a article more than suggesting that the Germans were victims of this affair and the Partisans were the culprits. The news paper went on to explain that the 320 victims were a sacrifice suggesting that it was the Partisans fault. The surviving partisans were only recently cleared of any wrong doing after what appeared to be a public campaign in Italy.
Drew - Did the programme show the Article in the Vatican newspapaer "Observato Romano" or was that just thrown in as another piece of propaganda against Pope Pius X11 - which is ongoing - by certain people ? The Actual number killed in that massacre was 385 for which Kesslelring was charged and found Guilty amongst other charges for his treatment of many partisans - found guilty and sentenced to death - he was finally released after a spell in prison by the British..... Cheers
Apparently after the incident the programme says the a newspaper that was the voice of the Vatican published a article... I agree with Tom. It would have been interesting if this "apparently" was substantiated or not. If it was, shame on the Catholic Church; if it wasn't, shame on who started the rumour.
I guess at the end of the day you will have to watch the hour long programme and come to your own conclusions. I have just provided a bit of what was shown in the programme that I thought was of interest. There was quite a few interviews with surviving Italians that were there at the time. I did find this on a Catholic site that appears to be defending the Vatican on what happened although I'm not sure I agree with their choice of words in some cases like the quotes below. Beyond a doubt, the bloody massacre of German soldiers in a Roman street, with its obvious provocative intentions, prompted considerable concern and alarm in the Vatican Suddenly, the entire papal strategy had been undermined by the spectacular and tragic liquidation of 33 German soldiers. Source: Via Rasella and the Fosse Ardeatine Regards
Drew - at a time when most of the Catholic Churches and Convents in Rome - and indeed all over Italy - were sheltering jews from the Germans - the fear was that it would provoke the Germans into renewed activity to search everywhere for those people. There can be NO shame attached to the Catholic Church's actions during that era as we have concrete eviodence that Albert Einstein - Gold Mier - the Chief rabbi of Rome - hundreds of rabbi's ll over occupied Europe held Pius X11 to be 'A Rightious Gentile' for his actions in saving - their figures - 860,000 jewish persons from the Holocaust - it was in 1963 that the lies started - as the head of the KGB said at the time - " a dead man can't defend himself " - and since that time the lies have been inserted insidiously and constantly into many areas - this is just another one......and as always - out of context ! Cheers
This is an interesting discussion and well done on the info provided but please be aware that discussions of this sort can get out of hand and the last thing we want is a theological discussion, this isnt a religious discussion board. Please be aware of this if you can!
Hi Tom, There was no or little mention of Jews in Rome at the time of the incident in the TV programme. The comments were about Italian citizens who were Partisans and killed some 30 odd Germans. I guess people would need to see the programme to come to their own conclusions. The people being interviewed by the TV programme were Italian civilians who were there, veterans from the Partisan organisation, relatives of the executed and Italian historians. Regards Andy
The Massacre at the Ardeatine Caves, 24 August 1944 Not something I know a lot about , the legal tooing and frowing about the SS offcier does ring a bell.
GH - I don't think it is a religious discussion - but rather an attempt on my part to clarify an unsubstantiated claim detrimental to a section of the institution involved - which is becoming rather constant with the insidious statements inserted by others - now if we are to have serious discussions - on any subject - then surely the truth should be foremost - not innuendo - in this case we have an institution trying to cool the well meant efforts of the good guys - in case the bad guys start to search everywhere for the culprits - and inadvertenly find the people that the inststution is shielding from the bad guys - and they were - that is a fact -Albert Einstein and Golda Meir and hundreds of Rabbi's have proven the case.... whether the programme mentions this or not ....or Drew heard it or not ... Cheers
Human remains in the Ardentine caves, aka Grotto Via Ardeatina, where Nazis massacred approx. 355 Italian civilians during WWII in reprisal for a partisan bombing that killed 32 SS troops. Rome, Italy. June 1944. Policeman guarding the mouth of the Ardentine caves, aka Grotto Via Ardeatina, where the Nazis massacred approx. 355 Italian civilians in reprisal for a partisan bombing that killed 32 SS troops. Police escort relatives into the Ardentine caves, aka Grotto Via Ardeatina, where Nazis massacred approx. 355 Italian civilians in reprisal for a partisan bombing that killed 32 SS troops. Two widows placing flowers in the Ardentine caves, aka Grotto Via Ardeatina, where the Nazis massacred approx. 355 Italian civilians in reprisal for a partisan bombing that killed 32 SS troops. Ardentine caves, aka Grotto Via Ardeatina; Notice outlining details of the Nazi massacre of approx. 355 Italian civilians in reprisal for a partisan bombing that killed 32 SS troops.
