Hi All I was just wondering if anyone knows where the records available from family history websites came from? The reason for my question is that I have found medal records, pension records and record that lists his service number, regiment and badge number on these sites but I have received a response from both the MOD and TNA that neither of them hold a record of for him! How can this be possible if there are the records I’ve attached out there in the public domain? Does anyone know if the records I have attached was stored somewhere different from the ones that were destroyed at the time of the fire that destroyed many of the First World War records? I just find it so strange that these have survived but there are no records for him held by MOD or TNA.
Different sources of information which were stored in different locations. Think of it as your details in a Birth Certificate, Marriage Certificate, Death Certificate, Voter List, Telephone Directory, Social Media Page etc - they all contain sub sets of your details relevant to their purpose. A service record can be lost - especially one of the WW1 burnt collection but the info in different ledgers (WO329 and Pension Ledger) can be pieced together to fill in some of the blanks. Ross
This MOD document contains many references to the National Archives (Kew) : it may not be the latest version. https://assets.publishing.service.g...efence_records_mgt_policy_procedures_v4_2.pdf Previous rules on record keeping in the services can be found in the regulations of each body - some are easier to find than others. On the subject generally a consultation was carried out back in August 2003: UK Government Web Archive
Thanks Ross I did wonder if this was the case, I just assumed that MOD held the service medals records and with me finding his medals record online I thought I was in with a chance that the rest of his file had survived. My great grandads records on the other side of my family are also not held so that’s put the kibosh on both great grandparents research. I’m still awaiting my grandads records to come from TNA, fingers crossed for a better outcome with them
The Ministry of Pensions records were “rescued” by the Western Front Association many years ago and were digitised and put online via Ancestry about 5 years ago. As far as I know they were never in the National Archives. The Silver War Badge Collection has been on Ancestry for about 10 years. Your third document has a WO329 reference so you may find out more by searching NA Discovery search engine with that reference. Steve
Not a full stop - just means a bit more luck and looking at other documents. All WW1 era documents have been transferred to the TNA. This includes ledgers, war diaries etc. Some have been digitised by third parties and so are also available on that source eg Ancestry. eg WO329 Search results: "wo329" | The National Archives That and medal ledger gives regiment - I would start by looking at war diaries for the unit. Some contain roster and there are the occasional mention of injury/noteworthy event for ORs as well as Officers. Even if he is not mentioned you will have a much better knowledge of events he would have been part of. Ross
Kew case law finder is a "Beta" service and is very helpful. This case with a convoluted title is a decision of the current chair of the Kew Advisory Council which includes this paragraph ( the case was about Whats Applications which may or may not be used instead of traditional telephone notes in discussing policy matters in Government )": "In relation to the proper construction of the PRA, we have decided as appears below that the specific duty on “every person responsible for public records” under section 3(1) is limited in the way that the Divisional Court held it to be. The duty is only to “make arrangements for the selection of those records which ought to be permanently preserved and for their safe-keeping”, not to make arrangements for the preservation of records before they are selected. That said, however, the Keeper is empowered under section 3(2) to give, and has actually given, important guidance as to the actions to be taken in preparation for the selection process to be undertaken under section 3. Making arrangements “for the selection of those records which ought to be permanently preserved” necessarily involves considering which public records might fall into that category and what should be done in relation to such records in the period leading up to the actual selection process. Section 1 of the PRA makes this clear. When dividing responsibilities, section 1(1) provides that the Secretary of State for the Department of Digital, Culture and Sport (DCMS) shall “supervise the care and preservation of public records”. Section 1(2) provides that the Advisory Council on Public Records (now the Advisory Council on National Records and Archives (ACNRA)) shall “advise the Secretary of State on matters concerning public records in general”. We think that both the National Archives Records Collection Policy (last reviewed in October 2019) (which the Divisional Court regarded as made under section 3(2)), and the Cabinet Office and National Archives Guidance on the Management of Private Office Papers of June 2009 (which the Divisional Court did not regard as made under section 3(2)) are guidance properly issued under section 3(2)." THE KING (on the application of the GOOD LAW PROJECT) v THE PRIME MINISTER & Ors. - Find case law - The National Archives Since then the private office guidance was updated: Guidance for the management of Private Office information and records (HTML) This is the current Records Collection Policy: https://cdn.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/records-collection-policy.pdf For ICO decisions on FOI requests relating to the MOD see here: https://icosearch.ico.org.uk/s/sear...y+of+defence+mod&profile=decisions&sort=adate
Thanks Ross I know he was hospitalised twice during his service, once from a bad shoulder/chest wound and once from being gassed so maybe if I can get the right diaries there may be some mention of it in there. I’m really looking forward to my grandads records arriving, it’s been 11 months now so fingers crossed I should be getting pretty close to the front of the queue lol
It's a pleasure. These subjects used to be discussed at the old User Forum in a gentlemanly fashion with a cup of tea and a bourbon biscuit. For example, see here at point 5.16 onwards. https://webarchive.nationalarchives...ocuments/user-forum-minutes-february-2011.pdf Later Edit: extracts from 22-23 Annual Report: "Total departmental spend 2022-23 : £46.2 million Number of physical records accessioned 305,654 pieces 3,191 metres {8} {8} These figures relate to accessions only and do not include special transfer projects such as the Ministry of Defence (MoD) service personnel records. There is no direct correlation between the number of records accessioned and the space required to hold them because records can vary enormously in size, from around 0.5mm for a single sheet to upwards of 10cm if a record is housed in multiple boxes. In 2022-23, the MoD service personnel records accounted for 80% of total accessions but only 40% of the space used." The MoD were allowed to send a few examples only of the series I would really like to have seen: WO 311 relating to Far East war crimes, but the decision to destroy was taken back in the 1980's. There is an index to the files in WO 356 ( downloadable free ) - just to rub in the fact that there was a lot of material destroyed. The files - there is one good example of a file relating to a POW camp in Thailand at Kew - were largely composed of correspondence between the Judge Advocate General's office in London and returned FEPOWs with the purpose of seeking witness statements further to the "Q" forms ( some of which would be on the files.) This came up in another User Forum meeting: "5.8 Q. Is there a high proportion of service records from the Second World War that do not survive? A. As far as we know, there has been no individual incident that has lead to large portions of the records being lost or damaged (as with the bombing raids which destroyed a large portion of the First World War service records). However, as the records are still with the MoD, this is a query that would need to be directed to them as we do not have statistics on survival rates of the records." minutes: The National Archives User Forum Thursday 15th November 2009
Found on FMP Hospital admission and discharge registers/2nd General Hospital [middle line]-J H Dunstan/Service number 27027
The WW1 "burnt records" as a result of an air raid were held at Mill Hill. I am not sure if the total records were stored there or not. Apparently the MOD were intending to attempt to recover these records presumably aided by improved technology. (I have an uncle whose records were lost from the Mill Hill air raid)
Oh wow! Thank you so much for this, I am his great grandchild but I will pass this on to his grandson who will be so grateful for this information. It sounds like he had some pretty nasty wounds, he was left with the hole in his shoulder for the remainder of his life but he did manage to return to part time work for a brewery after the war when he was recovered. He was also hospitalised from being gassed at some point during his service and he finally succumbed to TB at the end of his life, the family always said that the war got him in the end.
