"You want confirmation , THERE'S YOUR CONFIRMATION!!" That was Neville Brand. He earned a Silver Star and a Purple Heart in Germany. Agree with you all the Tora Tora Tora was one of the best and Pearl Harbor was about the worst movie I've ever seen. Loved it weh the Navy Capt in Washington told his wife "Darling, will you shut up and drive?"
Tora Tora Tora was (and still is) an excellent film. Midway was poor and dont get me started on Pearl Harbor. Just out of interest Opana, was "harbor" spelled "harbour" in 1941 in America or did the spelling change long before then? - I cannot complain either way... I would say that my spelling is atrocious but I have probably spelled that wrongly anyway
Tora Tora Tora was (and still is) an excellent film. Midway was poor and dont get me started on Pearl Harbor. David Aiken and I haunted the movie's forum (in the History section, not the main board.) Just out of interest Opana, was "harbor" spelled "harbour" in 1941 in America or did the spelling change long before then? - I cannot complain either way... I would say that my spelling is atrocious but I have probably spelled that wrongly anyway The shift took place early in the 19th c. I think. I usually go with the "conventions" of a board. Here I'd say "the ship entered the harbour". But Pearl Harbor is a particular place, so "Harbor" is the best way to spell it. (Not that I've ever hunted anyone down for spelling it any other way.)B)
I think the Americans have always spelled it harbor and we have always spelled it harbour slaphead that's why we do better at scrabble, we use more letters.
Tora Tora Tora was (and still is) an excellent film. Midway was poor and dont get me started on Pearl Harbor. Just out of interest Opana, was "harbor" spelled "harbour" in 1941 in America or did the spelling change long before then? - I cannot complain either way... I would say that my spelling is atrocious but I have probably spelled that wrongly anyway Andy, Original footage always shows "Pearl Harbor", a bit like the English word Colour and the American word Color. Regards Tom
I think the Americans have always spelled it habor and we have always spelled it habour slaphead that's why we do better at scrabble, we use more letters. I once digitized 2,000 pages of documents from the War of 1812. (Sideshow to the Napoleonic Wars for those of you who haven't heard of it.) This was in the pre-dictionary days and anybody could spell anything anyway they liked. Tough on my smell checker, I must say. I think the advent of dictionaries made the alternative spellings fixed and permanent.
I once digitized 2,000 pages of documents from the War of 1812. (Sideshow to the Napoleonic Wars for those of you who haven't heard of it.) We won that one didn't we?
I got this in a 3 pack of war films really cheap last year. In the commentary with the director he stated that it was a flop when it came out and quickly forgotten. He was still annoyed the studio (without his permission) allowed action scenes to be reused in the film "Midway" with Charleton Heston. I thought the 2001 movie "Pearl Harbor" was a disgrace. Couldn't agree with you more. Tora x 3 was brilliant - Pearl Harbour should be confined to the waste bin and shredded.
Yes, we did. B) Actually, it was a negotiated peace. And I heartily agree that "Tora Tora Tora" was a superio(u)r production, and that in my opinion it competes with the CGI laden flicks of today quite well.
...hum, in the realm of when not to go to war.... Tora! Tora! Tora! is on UK television (Film4) at 3.25pm today. Might watch that and then re-read Gordon Prange's "Miracle at Midway" again.... Sadly I never got his "At Dawn We Slept" - but did read it first a few years ago. Both are great books, I'd probably rank "Tora! Tora! Tora!" above the "Midway" film, but rate the "Midway" book just a bit higher than "At Dawn we slept" Rm.
Yes, Tom Selleck spotting, although I'm never sure if he is in this one or the Midway one or both (!) He did get to star in this episode of Magnum though: (Not sure if that counts!) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0639758/ To me the later Midway film (like the film Pearl Harbour) seemed like a more fictionalised approach. Never quite sure what to make of fictionalised history. It's a rather risky approach, but it probably gets more bums on seats in the eyes of the money. One of the "dangers" of thinking a "popular" history though is a good booK: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/1777-battle-of-midway/?hl=%2Bmiracle+%2Bmidway#entry11314 With some very valid criticisms of Prange's postumously published Midway book in there. I remember some veterans being indignant that that there were mistakes and stories from recycled myth. It's hard to turn people off reading popular histories though, and watching duff war films and gung-ho. I wouldn't put Tora, tora in this bracket. It helps a lot that it was made with the help of Japanese crews. Flags of our fathers and Sands of Iwo Jima could sit in this boat. There's a great series of mod campaigns in CFS2 of each of the battles/ pacific campaigns and Pearl Harbour, Midway and Iwo are in my opinion amongst the best. Rm.
And in CFS2 these ships, many of which took part in the attack on Pearl Harbour, were a real step up from the default CFS2 fleets: http://www.geocities.jp/usio_no_ibuki/Aircraft_Carrier_page_1.htm http://www.geocities.jp/usio_no_ibuki/Battleships_page_1.htm http://www.geocities.jp/usio_no_ibuki/Heavy_Cruiser_page.htm http://www.geocities.jp/usio_no_ibuki/Light_Cruiser_page.htm http://www.geocities.jp/usio_no_ibuki/Destroyer_page_1.htm It's still a bit of a shame that CFS3 didn't fulfill a similar promise and there don't seem to be any "concrete" plans yet for a CFS4....
Shucks! With all those warnings I thought that the Americans were going to foil the attack and go on to sink the Japanese fleet. Someone has just got to remake that film and have it end right.... it's what the public demands! Rm.
whether said or not it was true "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote
I think people will always dream of finding some fool proof (but obviously fictionalised!) way to have prevented Pearl Harbour, not least perhaps these days many, many, Japanese. I think that this is the film that I was thinking of where the US at Pearl Harbour nearly won I was really rooting for the Nimitz and suspect that they would have kicked butt (!) and was dying to see the result (even up to the present day, so it felt like a bit of a cop out that they didn't play the whole thing out? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Countdown_(film) One of my favourite "what ifs" would have to have been "what if Japan had been an ally of the British and US" - or just neutral - instead of hitching to the other side. Similarly the Italians, those of whom couldn't believe that the way that they went down Hitler's dark path c1939+ was the way to go. There's a game called "Making History" - The Calm and the Storm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_History:_The_Calm_%26_The_Storm Where some of these "scenarios" can be played out. I think it was tough to play as the Italians as if Germany wanted to they could come down and crush Italy relatively easily either through or around the alps, and it's hard to get other AI countries to stand up to aggression - although if a particular country is aggressive enough a pool of ai's usually do band together to knock it on its head - it's usually too late to help the player of the game much though - the ai seems to take against human's like the Terminator (!) and even if they are supposedly fighting on your side they are often too slow to rumble into a fight against your foe. I not sure how Japan tended to play out. I think from memory if it didn't attack the US, British and the Dutch it fared better on the whole though I think on the mainland it was pretty much a stalemate (though winnable at a push with focus against China - communist and republican) at risk from a Russian + German pact (Prior to Barbarossa Stalian thought he had this in the bag?) It might have been the defeats of the Japanese army against Russian troops on the Manchurian border prior to WW2 that convinced Japan to head south and East ? USSR had a bone to pick with Japan over 1904-5 and Japan's involvement in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War and the IJA always saw a far greater threat there (prodding the Russian bear) than the German's initially did. It shouldn't have taken a man as potentially "world-wise" and knowledgeable of the US as Yamamoto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto though to work out that goosing the American eagle was a huge gamble. He might have been between a rock and a hard place as regards what the Japanese army wanted though. As a Navy man however Yamamto should have stuck firmly to the US and the UK and said to hell with the IJA, but I'd worry then that he might simply have been "replaced" / "bumped off" by someone more compliant to their wish? I never could work out a way to succeed as the Japanese by starting a war with the US. One of the most interesting arguments to me was always that while Japan might claim to have been limited by the naval treaties on the number of ships it could build, when it decided to abandon those treaties prior to WW2 it was they who were immediately eclipsed in the naval building war, and it was the US and UK fleets that saw their numbers unleashed. Japan wasn't held back from completing or competing in carriers and battleships without limits, without these limits "aiding Japan" there was actually no contest at all. An interesting thread though might be debunking the Pearl Harbour myths, there are plenty of those to debunk! I don't think anyone ought seriously to think that the US or anyone other than Hitler and some of the Japanese thought it was a good idea. One of the biggest mysteries after why Japan went to war against the US is why did Hitler do so too? In an odd kind of sense though we can all be thankful that he did. Perhaps he didn't grasp hubris or irony (in it's secondary meaning for irony: "incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs!). All the best, Rm
