Unexpected enemy encounters!

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Giberville, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    I have been thinking about little battles that happen to units not expecting to have to come into direct contact with the enemy. I have come up with a few examples with a focus on North West Europe 1944-45:

    Otterloo - 3rd Medium Regiment Regiment RA

    Wetteren Bridge - Royal Engineers (After the Battle No107)

    Market Garden - places where the corridor was cut by enemy counter attacks

    I also have a recollection of an account I read some time ago where a medium artillery gun was sent out on a fire task and got lost, stumbled into an enemy unit and a brisk fire-fight ensued. Can't remember where I read this or what regiment was involved.

    I was wondering, with all the knowledge on this forum, we may be able to think of other examples?
     
    Simon Butler likes this.
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The whole of the rear of the BEF. Labour units with WW1 rifles and 50 rounds of ammo fighting Rommels Tanks and co in 1940....You don't get more unexpected than that :lol:
     
  3. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Was it 137 Brigade found that the five rounds per Boys Rifle they had were in fact half-charge training rounds?
     
  4. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    There is an incident described on page 95 in 'If You Survive" by George WiIson that happend around Sellerich. It was an unexpeced and very one sided encounter.

    He and another soldier were scouting ahead of their platoon during a heavy rainstorm. They came across a large rumber of rifles and machine guns leaning against trees. A short time later they found the 50 German owners about 100 yards away trying to shelter from the rain under tarps tied to trees. He said they couldn't believe how inexperienced they must have been to leave their weapons so far away.

    They brought up their platoon and got in firing position along with a second platoon. They opened fire on signal with M1s and six BARs.
    There was not a single return shot fired and only one German was was not killed or wounded. He was made a prisioner.
     
  5. zahonado

    zahonado Well-Known Member

    In Burma, Mogaung 1944 there was an incident where a Japanese patrol stumbled into a group of Lancashire fusiliers and they all thought they were on the same side initially.....then all hell broke loose!
     
  6. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Thanks for the interesting replies. I am thinking specifically about the period 1944-45 in North West Europe and encounters with the enemy by companies, regiments that were not normally expecting to actually fight with small arms: gunners, engineers, drivers and so on.

    Any ideas?
     
  7. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Opps, I missed the first sentence of your original post. So the example I gave dosen't really apply. The Americans were infantry. I don't know what type of soldiers the Germans were though
     
  8. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    How about elements of 123 LAA Regt around Veghel during Op Market Garden?

    Cheers,

    Tom
     
    CoenNL likes this.
  9. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Thanks Tom, that sounds just the sort of thing I am thinking of. Do you know any more about this?

    Cheers
    Anthony
     
  10. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi Anthony,

    Have a look in the Royal Artillery section of the Units and. Documents forum - there is a thread on the first page that should give you more information.

    There are a few American examples from the Ardennes as well I expect - The damned engineers?

    Cheers

    Tom
     
  11. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    The Americans in Operation Cobra experienced several such unplanned battles due to the rapid movements of their forces attempting to encircle the west wing of the 7th German Army which then tried to evade the American cordon

    • The 391st Field Artillery bn (US 3rd Armoured dvn CCB) was attacked on 27th July 1944 and forced to fire over open sights at German infantry supported by tanks
    • The 78th FA bn (US 2nd Armoured) was nearly overrun on the morning 29th July by Germans trying to break out of Roncey Pocket
    • CC Reserve of US 2nd Armoured was attacked during the night 30th July at St Denis Le Gast; HQ, signallers, cooks, etc, all took up arms to repel the German attack which temporarily seized St Denis until CCB could come to the rescue
    • The same 78th FA bn saw further action on the 30th when 11 fleeing German vehicles took a wrong turn and drove into their harbour.
     
    Dave55 likes this.
  12. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Thanks for both these American examples and the information about 123 LAA - a very interesting thread about this regiment during Market Garden Op.

    Anyone got any more British/Canadian examples?

    I wonder if the battles around Dunkirk in 1944-45 might give further examples. I have seen some information about 600 Regiment RA, but they are in fact infantry and no longer had artillery I think?
     
  13. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    I was always told this story by my father, a bombardier in "D" Troop 84 Bty when i was younger, but was always a bit sceptical about it.
    A report was made to 84BHQ of activity in the woods behind the 84 Bty Wagon Lines, so a patrol was formed and armed from "D" Troop to investigate, this patrol included my father. They found nothing untoward untill they climed a hill on the far side of the woods where on reaching the top they were confrounted by a German patrol who had done the same thing & had come up the other side. They both stared at each other in shock for several minutes without firing, then as one, both turned at the same time & went back down the way they had come, a happy ending for all.
    As i say i thought it a bit of a fairytail as there is no mention in the diaries, untill i was told the very same story by a relative of another Gnr in 84Bty who i interviewed a few years back.
    Best
    Rob
     
  14. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Hi Rob,

    These stories come along and are often actually true (or at least partly true) but the War Diary provides little help in many cases. The best way is to get more than one eyewitness confirming it - but we know how difficult that is!

    One interview I conducted (9th Medium Regiment) resulted in a story about an officer and his sergeant who were fired on by a Hitler Youth. The sergeant was wounded and the officer shot the HJ boy dead. Of course the War Diary says nothing. I would love to know if this happened, but perhaps I will never find the answer.

    Anthony
     
    Rob Dickers likes this.
  15. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Anthony

    With all due respect, I am surprised that you are surprised.

    Writing as one who himself was fired upon by members of the Hitlerjugend, I can assure you that when this happens it is an automatic reaction to fire back.
    The Hitler Youth


    It is only later, if you are lucky, that you have the opportunity to see who actually fired on you :(

    Ron

    ps
    Today, 27/02/18 I have just returned to this posting because after Gibervile made his recent posting I spotted that the link no longer worked and I have replaced it with one that does
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  16. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    The medium regiment I refer to in the above post is 59th Medium Regiment RA - a BSM was detailed to take a gun to a roving position, but accidentally strayed into enemy territory. Realising his mistake, he tried to turn the gun around but came under small arms and mortar fire. The detachment ran for cover and the tractor was set on fire. The enemy occupied the house they decided to seek shelter in and the men were captured. I believe 3 were killed, including the BSM (Langdon); three other gunners were killed alongside him.
     
    Rob Dickers likes this.
  17. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    There are several I found in research for Gunners in Normandy.

    #1 One of 25 Field Regiment deployed during operation Epsom fought a battle called "snipers corner". The infantry had gone through without mopping up properly WW1 style. The recce parties got into trouble losing most of a clearance patrol into a wood dealing with "snipers". The guns then turned up, couldn't deploy onto a position as it was under small arms fire, Recce tanks from some armoured unit lent a hand eventually cleating what seems to have been a company position of the HJ.

    #2 The recce party of 107 (South Notts Hussars) Medium Regiment, including the CO was looking for a gun position from which they could support the closure of the Falaise Pocket around 19-20 August 1944. (The extra range of the mediums was prized in the pursuit). The situation as fluid and a Canadian tank troop were assigned as escorts. The party was ambushed and the CO taken prisoner- but he escaped a day laters.

    #3 The late SSgt Wally Harris MM REME was awarded his MM for quick thinking in an encounter battle ion NW France/Belgium where a withdrawing German column bumped into 90 Field Regiment in the advance. The unauthorised browning pillaged from Gold beach mounted on his Jeep allowed him to shoot;lots of Germans. George Blackburn mentioned similar incidents of tangled columns in the pursuit to the river Seine.

    #4 There were a series of encounters where someone unfamiliar with the forward area got lost/took a wrong turning or failed to notice the absence of friendly forces or their tank tracks and stumbled on the enemy. George Blackburn tells the tale of one of the FOOswho is wounded but released by the Germans. One of the cockups in the Op Greenline left a column of softskin 17 pounders and an FOO on a foggy night near and unfamiliar village.The FOO called a DF onto a known German position Evercy tofind the rounds landing armound the column. Que much manoeuvring into fields and I think the loss of the guns. One of the saddest is the death of Lt McRae of 86 field regiment who was ordered to bring forward as spare OP tank for Robert Kiln (as in Place Robert Kiln). He took a wrong turning in the small roads near Andrie and his tank and a carrier over-ran 10./26 SS PGR. There was just him and the two drivers.he put up a fight with a sten gun from the turret cupola, shootign the SS man stalking them with a panzerfaust. The words "an officer with a map" is the answer to one of the enduring British army jokes "Q what is the most dangerous thing in the army." But it illustrates a difficult problem in the pre satnav world.
     
    stolpi likes this.
  18. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    64 medium regiment sept 1944.jpg
    Sheldrake,
    Some very interesting additions here and apart from the 107th Medium Regiment account, I have added to my knowledge. I think this could be a book in the making - if I ever get the time! 64 Medium Regiment on the St Odenrode-Veghel road September 1944 - an unexpected enemy encounter!
     
    stolpi likes this.

Share This Page