Valentine Tank "Ben Hur" in Tunisia

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by Takrouna1943, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. Takrouna1943

    Takrouna1943 Member

    Does anybody know the circumstances over the loss of a Valentine called "Ben Hur" in Tunisia? I know it happened early in the campaign, probably December 1942 and was from the 1st Army.
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Do you know what unit it belonged to?
     
  3. Takrouna1943

    Takrouna1943 Member

    all i know is that it was destroyed/captured by the Axis and was filmed.
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Takrouna -
    More likely to have been a Tank from 26th Armoured Bde of 6th Armoured Div - try 16/5th lancers - 17/21st Lancers - Lothian & Border Horse regiments - many squadrons had names for each Tank...December '42 might have been "Harts Force" with a squadron from 17/21st lancers...try googling for Harts Force
    Cheers
     
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Takrouna
    CORRECTION - before I get jumped on for another error - I should disregard my reference to Hart's Force as the 17/21st were involved with "Blade's Force" in the first battles in Algeria/ Tunisia in December of 1942as flank guard to 78th Divison at either Bou Arada or Tebourba - where they lost some Valentine Tanks- on their return to 26th Armourde bde - they were issued with Sherman Tanks with which they served all the way through Italy to Austria....

    The Second World War: North Africa 1942-43
    The Regiment eventually deployed to North Africa in November 1942. They were not however initially deployed with the Division but as part of 'Blade Force' under Lieutenant Colonel Hull, a 17th/21st Lancer. The plan was that Blade Force would act as a spearhead invasion force into Tunisia. The Force was to move from Algiers, in concert with the 8th Army who were moving west from Egypt, having advanced from El Alamein. The role of the 17th/21st Lancers within Blade Force was to provide a flank guard for the 78th Division, which was to occupy the city. Blade Force made a rapid advance of 300 miles before being held up at the T-roads between Sidi Nasir station and Mateur by strong German resistance. This delay allowed the Germans to reinforce and thus foil the bid to capture Tunis. As a result Blade Force was broken up and the 17th/21st Lancers were returned to 26th Armoured Brigade

    Cheers
     
  6. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Takrouna
    CORRECTION - before I get jumped on for another error - I should disregard my reference to Hart's Force as the 17/21st were involved with "Blade's Force" in the first battles in Algeria/ Tunisia in December of 1942as flank guard to 78th Divison at either Bou Arada or Tebourba - where they lost some Valentine Tanks- on their return to 26th Armourde bde - they were issued with Sherman Tanks with which they served all the way through Italy to Austria....

    The Second World War: North Africa 1942-43
    The Regiment eventually deployed to North Africa in November 1942. They were not however initially deployed with the Division but as part of 'Blade Force' under Lieutenant Colonel Hull, a 17th/21st Lancer. The plan was that Blade Force would act as a spearhead invasion force into Tunisia. The Force was to move from Algiers, in concert with the 8th Army who were moving west from Egypt, having advanced from El Alamein. The role of the 17th/21st Lancers within Blade Force was to provide a flank guard for the 78th Division, which was to occupy the city. Blade Force made a rapid advance of 300 miles before being held up at the T-roads between Sidi Nasir station and Mateur by strong German resistance. This delay allowed the Germans to reinforce and thus foil the bid to capture Tunis. As a result Blade Force was broken up and the 17th/21st Lancers were returned to 26th Armoured Brigade

    Cheers

    Tom, wasn't Blade composed only of light tanks?
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Warlord -
    You couldn't get Tanks much lighter than the Valentine - in 26th Armoured bde which landed at Algiers was a mix of Matilda's and Valentines- their recce unit - the Derbyshire Yeo - might have had some of the even older light tanks but I don't think they were invoved in Blade Force - all of these Tanks were disposed of when the Sherman 4's were issued at the end of December/January '43 and still had them until 1946/7 in Austria when the Staghounds and Greyhounds were issued ready for the recce task back in Lybia/ Egypt...
    Cheers
     
  8. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Warlord -
    You couldn't get Tanks much lighter than the Valentine -

    This is getting interesting... :smile:

    But wasn't the Valentine an I tank, and as such, not exactly designed for speed?

    I know it was a small job (there's a pic somewhere of one with a Ronson parked beside, and they look like Abbott and Costello! :biggrin:), but was it fast enough to be classified as "light"? Armour sure wasn't the criteria to rate it like that.

    And this is exactly another subject that I was going to ask you about, because IMHO, Blade's task wasn't exactly the one for slow, lumbering infantry tanks.
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Warlord - Blade force - as I understand it - was designed to get to Tunis before that area could be reinforced (300 Miles ?) - we lost that as 10th Panzers were landed along with some paras and other Infantry under Von Ahrnim - which set up the stalemate for the winter - the only Armour we had at that time was the 26th Armoured Bde of Valentines and Matildas so it was Hobsons choice really as both were classed as I Tanks but the Valentine was way faster than Matilda owing to lighter weight......

    in the spring '43 the real heavy mobs landed with 21st and 25th Tank bdes with I Tanks called Churchills with 2 pounder guns - which weighed close to 40 Tons - and fastest speed was 25 mph and 4 gpm - but by then 26th AB had their Shermans with 75mm guns and the heavies had six pounder guns so were all able to handle the Kasserine debacle.

    Typical British Invasion planning as they were told to expect German reinforcements
    into Tunisia - but they still landed at Algiers .....Monty sorted out that nonsense for Sicily- and everyone hated him for it .....some you win - most you lose ....
    Cheers
     
  10. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Warlord
    to travel 300 miles at 15mph must have been very boring - especially over the African roads and so I would suspect that most of the way was on transporters although there was a fair shortage of those at most times with the drivers performing miracles to keep them going - we did a few miles on their backs

    the valentine weighed no more than 16/17 tons and so in later times - this was light compared to the Sherman and Churchill..

    Cheers
    Armour8-65 mmPrimary
    armamentMk I-VII: QF 2-pounder (40 mm)
    Mk VIII-X: QF 6-pounder (57 mm)
    Mk XI: QF 75 mmSecondary
    armamentMk I-VII, X, XI: 7.92 mm BESA machine gunEngineMk I: AEC A189 petrol
    Mk II, III, VI: AEC A190 diesel
    Mk IV, V, VII-XI: GMC 6004 diesel
    131–210 hp (97–157 kW)Suspensioncoil sprung three-wheel bogiesOperational
    range90 mi (140 km)Speed15 miles per hour (24 km/h)
     
  11. Takrouna1943

    Takrouna1943 Member

    my company (Vickers, now BAE Systems) in Newcastle designed and made the Valentine, I'll have a look in the archives and see what they say.
     
  12. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi

    Just in case you were not aware, 23rd Armoured Brigade had 3 regiments of Valentines. I have read that 40 RTR were nicknamed "Montys Foxhounds" due to their taking the lead in chasing Rommel to Tripoli but according to my records they didn't leave Tripoli until early February.

    "The Valentine in North Africa 1942-43" by Bryan Perrett is a really good read if you can get one. It covers the Valentine in action primarily with 23rd Armoured Brigade, but if you are looking for background on the Valentine Tank, its pretty good too.

    Regards

    Gus
     
  13. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    the only Armour we had at that time was the 26th Armoured Bde of Valentines and Matildas so it was Hobsons choice really as both were classed as I Tanks but the Valentine was way faster than Matilda owing to lighter weight......Cheers

    Aaaahhhh... It was a matter of having to do with what you have...

    Much enlightening (as usual), Tom!
     
  14. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Hi

    "The Valentine in North Africa 1942-43" by Bryan Perrett is a really good read if you can get one. It covers the Valentine in action primarily with 23rd Armoured Brigade, but if you are looking for background on the Valentine Tank, its pretty good too.

    Regards

    Gus

    Just got my copy! :D
     
  15. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Don't get your hopes too high, I don't think it covers 1st Army Valentines.

    And now you need the Matilda and Churchill volumes for the set...
     
  16. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Don't get your hopes too high, I don't think it covers 1st Army Valentines.

    And now you need the Matilda and Churchill volumes for the set...

    I already have them... :p :D

    God bless the web!
     
  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gmyles -
    I was always under the impression that it was VIII armoured bde that was known as Monty's foxhounds owing to the Fox's mask of the bde's insignia - Monty even took them to NWE - and 23rd Bde went - I thought - with 7th Armoured of XXX leaving 4th and 7th Armoured bdes - when 7th AB was reformed after Burma - then sent to fight in Italy..
    Cheers
     
  18. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gmyles -
    Yet another correction - the 23rd Armoured Bde stayed in Italy with 40th-46th and 50th RTR

    The 22nd Armoured bde went home with 7th Armoured Div after Naples with 11th Hussars -1st and 5th RTR and City of London Yeo..

    The VIII Amoured bde left Tunisia for theUk and landedat D Dayin support of 50th Tyne & tees Div with 4/7th Dragoons-Notts yeo and 24th lancers
    Cheers
     
  19. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    TTH and Chris C like this.

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