Ropey. Sorry but I think that you are wrong on this one. I have checked and double checked the 7 Fd Coy RE Regt History source and Daniell's book 'Mediterranean Safari'. They all show exactly where the bridge was put in and the WDs confirm the Grid Reference as being where the civilian bridge is now - next to the Local Authority maintenance yard. I need to see your book to see if you are right. I am happy to change my view if you could show me. Regards FdeP
Ropey. Sorry but I think that you are wrong on this one. I have checked and double checked the 7 Fd Coy RE Regt History source and Daniell's book 'Mediterranean Safari'. They all show exactly where the bridge was put in and the WDs confirm the Grid Reference as being where the civilian bridge is now - next to the Local Authority maintenance yard. I need to see your book to see if you are right. I am happy to change my view if you could show me. Regards FdeP Pp 296 and 297 for the aerials. P286 for one map we published but I have several others confirming it as well. If you don't already have the book you should (but then I would say that wouldn't I :p). Ask your library to get it in for you if need be - I don't care who buys it as long as people keep doing so. If you live near Leeds I'd be happy to show you all the evidence that didn't make the book. For the record, the regimental histories were often inaccurate - my research on the much smaller battle for Termoli has them with entire units in the wrong place, bridges washed out when they weren't and so on, and the Cassino stuff was very hit and miss. They are good for the anecdotal stories but often seem to have been written without much recourse even to the diaries (which themselves aren't perfect of course). I would also disagree with you on the GRs - it depends on which WD you read! Danielli was a great read and I bought it for my sapper mate, but it wasn't without its mistakes. Anyway, take a gander at the aerials and you'll find a picture tells a thousand words.
Gents, Just a short one to aid any immediate discussion points. The map on P286 of Perry's (really excellent) book shows the location of Amazon at the "same place" as the map posted on P1 of this thread by Paul R and referenced to the 4th Infantry Division's history. To complicate, and looking at the map reference on the written notes from one of the correspondent's (Driftwood1954) here, that says Amazon was at MR 870179 - I have a US Army defense (sic) overview map from Feb 1944 and it looks like that map reference was near to the Orinoco fording point (DCLI's/10th Brigade crossing). I guess the aerial shots would be the best shout. best Richard
PsyWar.org has already provided the incontrovertible evidence on P5 of this thread, with an aerial I hadn't found before and which certainly would have gone in the book! QED.
Ropey. Although I have yet to get my hands on your book to check, we seem to be agreeing with each other. Psywar.org's aerial photo on Page 5 of this thread is exactly where I think the site is - and there is a civilian bridge there now which has a very large pipe running down the side of it. Regards FdeP
Here's a not-very-polished direct comparison of Lee's airphoto with GoogleEarth: Nice to see that Square Wood is still a feature.
Thanks Idler. Minden you will see that the civilian bridge is further downstream, in the larger bend where the DCLI crossed ('Orinoco' as also pointed out by someone earlier). Idler has marked it 'AMAZON-minden1759' and you should be able to see now it is clearly NOT AMAZON. Also, to be clear, there is not another civilian bridge at the actual AMAZON site.
Ropey. Blimey!. My sincere apologies, you are absolutely right. I have been briefing at the wrong site. Suitably chaste but now eager to get out and have another look! Regards FdeP
Minden 1759 Been trying to respond to our little argument about the 5th Cdn AD capturing the Coriano Ridge as i have been off line for nearly two weeks- so immediately to put your mind at rest - you are absolutely correct in that the 5th Cdn did indeed capture Coriano which - as you state is in fact on Coriano Ridge- now - if you will allow me to state why I call the whole series of ridges close to Coriano as bing the Coriano Ridge - it was thus .... It was on the 30th August '44 that we had fought our way from the Metauro River to the true and unprepared Gothic Line on the Foglia River.WE crossed under small arms fire only towards Ostia Nueova ns point 133 - - made our way to Pozzo Alto and point 119 then on to the convent some ten miles away - then on to Pieve. It was there that the powers decided to have a swan towards Rimini- and so we galloped off with the 145th Regt RAC in the lead with the Seaforths of Canada on board - and so we were quite surprised therefore on the 3rd September to find ourselves under a bad outbreak of very heavy gunfire - which was ascertain to be from our usual suspects - 1st Paras -26th Pz's and the 29th PZ grens - and so we could only wait until the others caught up- when we asked just what there locations were to be told on that bloody ridge at Coriano- and so it came to pass that ALL future comments were known as that Bloody Coriano Ridge - which it was as we were held up until the 22 september - three weeks of absolute hell in fact. WE have known for some time that it was a series of ridges from Croce in the west - Gemmano - Coriano - San Martino - San Fortunato just before Rimini but for ever after I shall know that place as the Bloody Coriano Ridge- where there is now a Cemetery with some 2000 graves - many of whom were my friends Cheers
No worries FdeP. Access to the bridge site is across fields so can sometimes be awkward. Of course there is nothing to see anyway, but it would be nice to stand on the spot. If your groups are relatively mobile you could get there but it's probably around 100m+ across country whichever way you approach it. Some of the other bridge sites are more accessible though perhaps less interesting.
Ropey. Amazon is the one of interest to me. My father was a Sapper Officer and, as a child, was always passing the Crossing the Rapido painting by Terence Cuneo which hangs in the RE Mess at Brompton so it has special significance to me - even though I opted to be an Infantry Officer. Regards FdeP
Tom. Really useful additional info. I am at the Coriano Ridge GWGC in Feb 12 so will tip my hat to your chums. Regards FdeP
... which is 48p more than I paid (incl P & P). But I did have to wait 3 weeks for delivery. A really excellent book - fantastic then/now photographs and detailed complementary narratives. Saw it on a table top in October and immediately ordered it. My father crossed Congo at 1500 hrs on the 14th May 1944. It's also helped to finally make my mind up that I won't ever fly RyanAir to Ciampino again - so that's also good. Richard
Richard I don't fly anywhere with Ryanair......booked on Line from Canada - Stanstead - Ancona - and as they were thinking of their environment - no tickets - but my environment took one hell of a beating with NINE pages of instructions - finally got past the gate at Stanstead and wondered why everyone was running- it was to get a seat - so I stick with BA..... ! Cheers
Tom, Yes. Good shout flying BA. My modern "war story" was the 6hr Ryanair delay at Ciampino in October. Of course, you, my father and a great many others took a darn sight longer to get from Rome to London in 1944/45. From the moment that my father met the Pope and served at mass in St Peter's on 12 June 1944, it took him 373 days to get to see his Mum and Dad. Of course, so many other lads didn't get the chance for that long waited reunion. best Richard
Richard - still trying to catch up since my changeover to the IMAC and note that your father served at St Peters- no such luck with me as two guardsmen looked more impressive on the Altar of the Blessed Sacrament Chapel- but I did manage to kiss the papal ring of Pius Xii- must have been one of the first around June 8th Still recall every detail Cheers
Tom, Brilliant memories. You were certainly pretty quick in getting into Rome. The extremes of emotion of just coming out of the line and then meeting the Pope and attending mass must have been most incredible. My father also vividly recalled the events of the 12th June 1944, 60 years later: QUOTE. “Brigadier Scott asked if the Pope would like to hear some pipe music. The massed brigade band in their saffron kilts and caubeens with the various coloured hackles and regimental badges played ‘Killaloe’ followed by the ‘Sash My Father Wore‘. This was probably the first and last time one of the signature tunes of the Orange Order was heard in the Vatican. His Holiness tapped his foot to the beat of the martial music and obviously enjoyed the alien sound. He then blessed our rosaries and other objects and each of us mounted the dais to kneel and kiss his ring. The small Orange detachment remained in place. More pipe music was played and the whole assembly was given the pontifical blessing. The Pope walked out to the sound of pipes and we filed out.” “By arrangement, the retreat was beat on the steps of St Peter’s on the large flat surface half way to the entrance. Crowds of clergy stood around clapping and, beyond the square, a vast crowd had gathered. The Catholics in the detachment, who were in the majority, and many others went into Mass at the Blessed Sacrament altar. I was the master of ceremonies and there were about 10 other servers. I had served Mass in many strange places, but to do so in St Peter’s Cathedral was beyond belief. The basilica was enormous and I could not wait to see over it. The Pieta (a sculptural masterpiece by Michaelangelo) and the magnificent High Altar will remain in my memory.” “At the end of the ceremony, we were dismissed to have the day free until the afternoon. With a couple of others, I toured the cathedral open-mouthed at this splendour in the middle of a war. Rome was untouched having been declared an Open City." END QUOTE. Richard
Richard No question it was THE highlight of the war - unforgettable - we finished off at Agnani and then onto Velletri for a rest and our Padre was quick off the mark as he had old friends in Rome- i'll send you my article on that visit if you can send your e-mail to TomcanAT Shaw.ca Cheers
I noted with interest Ropey, what you said about mistakes in histories, and specifically Col. Daniell's book, and no doubt you are correct here. I thought it might be interesting to point out quite how recently Mediterranean Safari was written (1990 according to the publishing date, but my memory fails me here). As I remembered it, a chap convinced him to write up his memoir, based on his diary. This long after the event it is quite obvious that the odd error will creep in to a memoir, as opposed to a piece of academic research with its benefit of corroboration. As an interesting aside, I first met him around this time as young boy interested in militaria. He was a lovely gentle man who entertained me with his fruit bowl with a teller mine fuse implanted in the middle, and his replica 'schu' mine! He was forever practical and extremely modest (a couple of years ago he dismissed being called a war hero with the words 'that was a long time ago!') He lived to the ripe old age of 98, and was buried in the churchyard of the church he cared for over many years last Friday, hence what spurred me into looking again at his career and finding this site.
