Ummm..no, sorry. We've spread the pics out amongst several threads. Do a site search for ortona & you'll find them. Look for threads titles such as ortona sherman, casa berardi, stirlin castle & our italy trip.
With approx 2,500 Canadian casualties and around 1,500 civilian deaths was this the Allies bloodiest battle on the western front? Often refered to as Italy's Stalingrad what's your thoughts? Some Background info: Battle of Ortona - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A rather good documentary: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/books-films-tv/15924-whats-tv-today-3.html#post189703 Cheers Andy
Along with Juno Beach and Dieppe, Ortona is one of those high profile battles for Canadians. It accounted for 25% of the fatal casualties in the Italian campaign. Certainly, the veterans talk of the particular intensity of that fighting. Far and away the best account of that action was written by Mark Zuehlke. A great read if you want to learn more.
Canuck - Not being a fan of Zuehlke for his fictionalising of the Liri and Gothic Line battles -I haven't read his account of Ortona - the others were enough BS for me ! I prefer the official Canadian History by Lt.Col Nicholson - and the words of the survivors of the Seaforths and Loyal Eddies as the PPCLI's were not too involved in the house to house "mouseholing" conflicts at the time...we often talked about the scenes of carnage - this was not their first meeting with the 1st paras - nor the last as we met up with them again at the Gothic Line...but it is agreed that the 1st Div lost 25% of the total for the Italian campaign in that one battle - and at Christmas also ! They nearly did it again at the Gothic when there were few reinforcements coming from Canada with casualties in the 2000 area but by the time of the Liri - they had the 5th Armoured to help out and they contributed to the casualty rate at the Melfi and Frosinone - to make up the 6000 killed.....then they even had more in NW Europe ! Cheers
Ortona? Went there nearly a year ago, posted lots of photos. Yep, if you do a search for Ortona you'll find quite a lot here. Always good to use search first.
Cheers for the advice but without wishing to sound controversial I did do a search earlier today and just checked again to make sure I didn't miss anything. There are 47 threads that mention Ortona over two pages I only went through the first 25 threads earlier today after watching the documentary and none of them were specific to Ortona apart from a few pictures. The rest of the threads just mentioned the town in passing. To my error at that point I gave up searching as I have now find one dated in 2005 thats a cut a paste that gives a overview of the battle but does not discuss the points I raised in my thread ref asking if it was the west's bloodiest battle or the wests Stalingrad. Note to self: look harder next time Cheers
Drew - thought I had answered you earlier - but the web is playing up again ... Possibly the main problem was that Ortona was a Canadian only Battle and did not generate the publicity as did Cassino which was an Allied battle with US - Kiwi - Indian - French - Polish - Canadian - oh and a few British divisions - involved over a longer period with many more casualties...so that Title of Italy's Stalingrad would sit on Montecassino better than Ortona...in my view ! Cheers
Drew - might have found the origin of the "Little Stalingrad" which cost the Canadains so much - in the book - D Day Dodgers of Dan Dancocks on page 216 -"Just like passchendale' he writes -" the Van Doos ( Quebec 22E regiment") staged an impressive raiid on Chreccio, a stone walled little village nicknamed " Little Stalinngrad" by the Canadians. When the patrols spotted a weak spot in the defences - Capt.Paul Triquot.V.C. led his company into Chreccio and after blocking the only two exits,went door to door shooting and grenading the surprised enemy ....." This village is just North of Ortona and Capt Triquot had won his V.C. at Casa Beradi on the Moro River which flows near Ortona- could be where this saying came from ??? Cheers
Cheers Tom, I wonder if the presence of Russian Officers had anything to do with it too. My overall surprise really is that I had never really heard of the battle considering it is up there with some of the bloodiest battles of WW2 in the West. Regards Andy
I thought the reference to Stalingrad was from News reports at the time. Ortona became "little Stalingrad" as radio journalist Matthew Halton and reporter Ralph Allen wrote feature stories on the battle. Canada at War - Page: WWII: The Battle of Ortona
Owen/ Drew - Then again the New York Times made a headline out of it - but many people line up for the kudos......Probably originated with Halton - he was good Never heard of Ortona Drew ? - funny - I did - bet you never heard of the Coriano Ridge either and that was in all the papers ! Cheers
Drew - This was Coriano Ridge - over to the East of Gemmano the Canadians were taking a beating as well - for a week - the 1st Brit. Armoured Div was so badly beaten they were disbanded - 4th Div took a bad knock as well...it was not a goos scene ! Gemmano...1944 - The battles Cheers
Trio of British paratroopers manning observation post on Mt Maiella in the Ortona sector during the drive through Italy. Italy 1944.
Pair of British paratroopers walking through smoking rubble of Gessapolini during the drive through Italy. 1944.
The Ortona Town square is a good example of a strong defense with automatic weapons and A/T guns supporting each other and covering various avenues of approach. The German Para's tricky yet flexible defense plan confused/disoriented the Canadian infantry and made a well coordinated assault difficult.
"The last Medieval War was fought in Italy in 1943 and 1944. Fortress towns on great promontories which had been battled over since the eighth century had the armies of new kings flung carelessly against them. Around the outcrops of rocks were the traffic of stretchers, butchered vineyards, where, if you dug deep beneath the tank ruts, you found blood-axe and spear." Loyal Edmonton Regiment casualties for the eight days numbered 172 with 63 dead. The Seaforth Highlanders lost 41 killed and 62 wounded. German casualties were 455 including 168 killed. http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/cmh/back%20issues/CMH/volume%202/issue%202/Brown%20-%20The%20Rock%20of%20Accomplishment%20-%20The%20Loyal%20Edmonton%20Regiment%20at%20Ortona.pdf
